Audio channel "Stadtstimmen"

[Intro music] Tobias: Hello dear listeners of Archivwürdig! After a long break, I'm back today with some good news about the upcoming driseason of our podcast. First things first: The new season starts next week on Thursday, November 28th. And, exceptionally, new episodes will be released on a weekly basis. What can you expect in the dritten season of Archivwürdig? As you, dear listeners, may have gathered from the media, there was an international competition for a contemporary memorial site in Reichenau. We have taken the upcoming redesign as an opportunity to talk about the former Reichenau labor education camp. On the other hand, we also want to address the related topic of the culture of remembrance and places of remembrance. Finally, I would like to point out that the majority of the episodes were recorded during the ongoing competition for the memorial site. If you have any questions, requests or suggestions regarding the individual episodes, please contact us by email at podcast@innsbruck.gv.at. As I said, we'll be starting next week and, as always, we'd be delighted if you listened to the episodes. [Tobias: Archivwürdig is a production of the Stadtarchiv Innsbruck and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. #00:02:04-8#

[00:00:00] Tobias: Hello and welcome to the first episode of our dritten season of Archivwürdig,

[00:00:06] the podcast of the Innsbruck City Archives.

[00:00:10] At the beginning of our season I invited Sabine Pitscheider to talk to us.

[00:00:15] Sabine has been researching the Nazi era in Tyrol for many years and was part of the expert commission

[00:00:21] for the new memorial site and co-authored a study on the Reichenau labor education camp.

[00:00:28] Together we talk mainly about the Reichenau labor education camp,

[00:00:31] but also about camp and camp work in Tyrol in general.

[00:00:36] [Intro music] Tobias: Dear Sabine, thank you for talking to me today about the Reichenau labor education camp.

[00:00:57] Which is also, let me say, the overarching theme of the season.

[00:01:01] And maybe let's just really start at the base with the Reichenau labor education camp.

[00:01:08] How long has the Reichenau labor education camp existed?

[00:01:11] Sabine: Since the winter of 1941/42.

[00:01:14] And originally the idea was to set up a reception camp for Italian workers.

[00:01:20] Because that was exactly the time when Italian workers wanted to return home en masse from the German Reich.

[00:01:26] And many were picked up at the Brenner Pass.

[00:01:28] And the German Reich didn't want to lose any workers.

[00:01:31] And so the idea was to collect them somewhere and distribute them further, after a punishment.

[00:01:36] Because that was labor flight and was forbidden.

[00:01:39] And when the Italian government found out about it, they weren't thrilled,

[00:01:43] because officially Italy was an ally of the German Reich

[00:01:46] and you don't normally treat friends like that.

[00:01:49] And then the instruction was, well, if it's not a reception camp,

[00:01:52] then we'll make a labor education camp

[00:01:54] and there were labor education camps all over the Reich, over 100.

[00:01:58] And they were intended for discipline.

[00:02:01] For every worker, regardless of citizenship.

[00:02:04] And there the people were to be disciplined and educated to work under quotation marks, please.

[00:02:11] Educated and after a certain period of extremely bad treatment, come back to their old job

[00:02:17] and continue to talk about how bad it was for them, so that the others don't get the idea of resisting.

[00:02:23] Tobias: The choice of location, that's not entirely arbitrary.

[00:02:27] Sabine: It wasn't arbitrary, as you say.

[00:02:29] The Nazi regime needed dringend camps to accommodate the many workers,

[00:02:32] whether prisoners of war, voluntary civilian workers or forced laborers.

[00:02:36] And they mostly tried to create this infrastructure on the outskirts of towns or villages.

[00:02:43] And the first camp in Reichenau in this area, where the AEL was located, was the prisoner of war camp of the city of Innsbruck.

[00:02:50] And right after that was a civilian labor camp of the city of Innsbruck, over the years

[00:02:54] There was also a Reichspost camp and a Reichsbahn camp.

[00:02:57] And the location was favorably chosen from the Nazi point of view

[00:03:01] With the north bridge you could get to the other side of the Inn

[00:03:05] and there was a streetcar stop there.

[00:03:07] And at the same time, these camps were within walking distance of the large construction sites of the city of Innsbruck in Pradl.

[00:03:14] And therefore also accessible on foot.

[00:03:17] Tobias: You've already mentioned the other camps, which were still in urban areas.

[00:03:22] How should the labor education camp be classified in terms of size on Innsbruck soil or the importance of the camp?

[00:03:31] In contrast perhaps to the Innsbruck camps or other camps.

[00:03:35] And perhaps also, if we look a little, in relation to Tyrol, so to speak.

[00:03:41] Sabine: Innsbruck itself had, well, normally every larger municipality had its own camp.

[00:03:46] The local businesses usually rented their staff and paid for it.

[00:03:52] In other words, it was basically like a commercial enterprise.

[00:03:54] It was the same for the city of Innsbruck.

[00:03:56] And in theory, 750 people were accommodated in the camps of the city of Innsbruck.

[00:04:01] So there were 750 sleeping places.

[00:04:03] In emergencies there were often more.

[00:04:06] And then there were the company camps.

[00:04:10] That means that some companies, especially construction companies, had their own company camps.

[00:04:14] They were usually small, 100/150 men, and were then moved again when the construction site was finished.

[00:04:20] In other words, they were really traveling camps.

[00:04:23] And that means in Innsbruck itself we have the camps of the city of Innsbruck with about 750 people.

[00:04:31] The smaller company camps or larger ones.

[00:04:34] And the AEL, with 800 possible accommodation places, was one of the large camps in Innsbruck.

[00:04:43] But the largest camps in Tyrol were the power plant construction camps.

[00:04:47] So TIWAG in the Lower Inn Valley and the West Tyrolean power plants in West Tyrol.

[00:04:53] And these were, excuse me, very briefly, these were camps of 1,000, 1,500, 2,000.

[00:04:58] Tobias: As stupid as it sounds now, they were also prisoners or detainees from the camps,

[00:05:05] so they were also exchanged across Tyrol, so they came to the Lower Inn Valley for work assignments, for example.

[00:05:13] They stayed there for a while and then returned to the labor camp?

[00:05:17] Sabine: That was quite common.

[00:05:18] That is, normally a worker, whether civilian, prisoner of war or conscripted,

[00:05:24] could not choose the job.

[00:05:26] The employment office assigned them according to economic considerations.

[00:05:30] In other words, it was quite common for someone who was perhaps first at the Retter construction company's warehouse on the Ulfiswiese,

[00:05:37] then came to the Ötztal or then to the Illwerke and maybe back to the city in winter.

[00:05:42] In other words, we were always dealing with a lot of people at the same time, but they weren't always the same people.

[00:05:48] Tobias: Because we've already briefly touched on the subject.

[00:05:52] Work assignments have come to a building site, to a building project.

[00:05:58] What is the formal procedure, for example, how a company can obtain a worker?

[00:06:05] call them workers now, they're conscripted workers,

[00:06:08] is it a formal act, a letter that you send and then you get the person?

[00:06:15] Sabine: It was more complicated. [both laugh]

[00:06:18] Sabine: So it was only the employment office that was responsible.

[00:06:21] That means, if a company needed a worker, male, female, old, young, it didn't matter,

[00:06:25] an application had to be submitted to the employment office.

[00:06:28] And then you had to prove that you could accommodate the worker.

[00:06:32] That's why there were so many company camps and community camps.

[00:06:35] And only when that was secured did the employment office start looking for such a person.

[00:06:40] The Nazi regime had recruitment agreements with friendly countries,

[00:06:44] with Italy, Bulgaria, Hungary and so on.

[00:06:47] And that means that there were recruitment offices in these countries where people could apply,

[00:06:52] for a job in the German Reich, if they were healthy and able to work

[00:06:55] and not hostile, they came to work in the German Reich.

[00:06:58] Those were the volunteers.

[00:07:00] Whereby voluntariness is very relative, because if they were in the German Reich,

[00:07:03] if they didn't like the work and wanted to leave, they couldn't.

[00:07:06] And from then on it was more like forced labor.

[00:07:10] And the employment office then asked at these recruitment offices

[00:07:14] and they kept coming... either the people came to the Reich individually or on transports.

[00:07:19] And they mainly came on transports from the occupied western territories of the Soviet Union,

[00:07:26] today Ukraine and Belarus, which were subject to particularly strict regulations.

[00:07:32] They had to carry their own license plate so that everyone knew immediately,

[00:07:35] that they were dealing with "subhumans" under quotation marks.

[00:07:39] And with these deportation trains they came into the Reich all together

[00:07:43] and were then distributed to the employment offices and the employment offices then distributed them again to the individual companies.

[00:07:48] When the labor arrived, no one could say, neither the employment office nor anyone else,

[00:07:53] that means in principle the companies that really needed workers,

[00:07:57] needed an enormous amount of perseverance until they got anyone at all.

[00:08:02] They were not allowed to hire someone who had applied to them freely, that was not possible.

[00:08:06] It did happen, but theoretically it wasn't possible.

[00:08:09] The only responsible body was the employment office.

[00:08:11] Tobias: It would also have been possible for the worker simply not to have been found at all

[00:08:15] and then it never came to the transfer of a worker, so to speak?

[00:08:20] Sabine: Yes, that is quite possible.

[00:08:22] The employment office, the message was simply terse, currently not possible.

[00:08:26] [Drehgeräusch] Tobias: Maybe we should just go back to the labor education camp in Reichenau.

[00:08:34] You've already said that they are registered, in and of themselves,

[00:08:38] come in, they come from the East now, different locations,

[00:08:42] they arrive at the camp,

[00:08:44] Are they then... or how meticulously are they registered, the arrivals?

[00:08:50] Sabine: That depended on whether they were prisoners of war or civilian workers.

[00:08:54] Prisoners of war were registered in the prisoner of war camps,

[00:08:58] Most of those who came to Tyrol came from Markt Pongau, today St. Johann im Pongau.

[00:09:03] They had a number and all the correspondence was between the management of the main camp and the labor office.

[00:09:10] The company itself had nothing to do with it.

[00:09:12] It only rented the labor of these men.

[00:09:15] And every week the POW camp had to report to the mayor of the town where the camp was located,

[00:09:20] report who was currently interned in this camp, who was imprisoned

[00:09:26] and which company these people were assigned to.

[00:09:29] Most of these lists no longer exist.

[00:09:31] That was the case with civilian workers, it was under the Aliens Employment Act,

[00:09:35] just like today. There was a foreigners authority at every district administration,

[00:09:39] There was a temporary residence permit, the people were socially insured,

[00:09:44] and were given their own ID card as a foreign worker, as we know it today.

[00:09:50] Tobias: How do you see the difference now between a labor education camp and a concentration camp?

[00:09:56] Sabine: The main difference lies in the purpose of the camp.

[00:10:02] To say that now... Tobias: In general terms. It's difficult to... Sabine: It's very difficult, but normally, you have to say, in an AEL the aim was not the death of the person,

[00:10:13] because they were supposed to return to a work process.

[00:10:16] And since there was a shortage of workers, the goal was basically to maintain the workforce.

[00:10:22] That had very little to do with the practice in the labor education camp.

[00:10:30] But that's also because the Innsbruck labor education camp took on all kinds of other functions.

[00:10:37] For example, it was a transit camp for deported Jews from Italy on their way to Auschwitz.

[00:10:43] And while they were interned here, of course they also had to do work and were treated extremely badly,

[00:10:50] because, as "subhumans" in quotation marks, they had no value in life at all.

[00:10:54] Or workers who became Italians after Italy fell, from the summer of 1943,

[00:11:04] who went on strike were deported to the German Reich via the Reichenau camp.

[00:11:09] They were treated extremely badly.

[00:11:11] They got some dead bodies out of these deported Italian workers.

[00:11:15] And then the camp also had the function of, let's call it, a depot for politically unpopular people.

[00:11:25] For example, when the assassination attempt on Hitler failed in the summer of 1944,

[00:11:29] there were arrests all over the Reich.

[00:11:31] And also in Tyrol, where those who were considered political enemies were interned in the Reichenau labor education camp.

[00:11:38] That was the case again in April 1945.

[00:11:42] Or we have this action in the spring of 1943, that the Gauleiter Hofer wanted to get Tyrol free of Jews at all costs

[00:11:50] and simply had the Jewish spouses of Aryans in Aryan marriages arrested

[00:11:56] and deposited them in the Reichenau labor education camp on their way to Auschwitz.

[00:12:02] These people were treated differently again.

[00:12:04] That means, on the one hand, we have this labor education, where the goal was not to kill,

[00:12:09] because the labor force should be preserved and then we had people imprisoned there again,

[00:12:14] where it didn't matter whether they lived or died.

[00:12:17] And that simply has to do with the change in function of the camp, that it's very difficult to say,

[00:12:22] where the difference to a concentration camp should actually be.

[00:12:26] Tobiaa: I understand, because the, the, the groups of people in the camp are already different.

[00:12:32] Sabine: It simply depended on how the Nazi regime categorized a person in terms of their "value".

[00:12:38] And there were worthless people and people who were more valuable.

[00:12:42] So the regulations actually said that someone should stay there for a maximum of 56 days for labor training.

[00:12:48] And work education meant forced labor, usually for the city of Innsbruck.

[00:12:52] Tobias: You said normally, that is, that is never the ... so ...

[00:12:56] Sabine: Over time, the longer the war lasted, the more likely it was that regulations were simply ignored.

[00:13:02] And, for example, this limit of 56 days did not apply to the so-called Eastern workers and to these deportees from the Western Soviet Union.

[00:13:09] They were allowed to be exploited indefinitely, because they were at the very, very bottom of the hierarchy of human value anyway.

[00:13:18] And that's why ... so it's very difficult to say.

[00:13:22] Tobias: It's not easy.

[00:13:23] And that's why I thought I'd ask anyway, because it's for the people there draoutside,

[00:13:29] because you always hear about the Reichenau labor education camp but ...

[00:13:32] Sabine: What is that?

[00:13:33] Tobias: What is that and why are there concentration camps, why are there reception camps, this camp, there ...?

[00:13:39] Sabine: Yes. The German camp system was very difficult with the different functions that were written into it.

[00:13:45] Because now, for example, a normal..., so in a prisoner of war camp the aim was not to kill.

[00:13:50] Tobias: Yes. Sabine: The goal was to exploit labor.

[00:13:52] So in a labor prisoner of war camp.

[00:13:55] In the main camps, for example, the more westernized you were, the more likely you were to survive.

[00:14:02] So a Soviet prisoner of war, the probability of survival of a Soviet prisoner of war was low,

[00:14:07] because they were simply treated worse.

[00:14:09] Because depending on where someone came from, you got the food... the amount of food... or not.

[00:14:17] Tobias: The same will apply to prisoners of war.

[00:14:19] Sabine: Also. Even though the Stalagleitung usually made the regulations for prisoners of war.

[00:14:26] The regime itself could not intervene in that way.

[00:14:29] And the Stalag really had to act in accordance with the Geneva Convention.

[00:14:34] The Nazi regime could not intervene as radically as it does now in a civilian labor camp.

[00:14:40] The situation was different in a civilian labor camp.

[00:14:43] There was no Red Cross and no Geneva Convention.

[00:14:46] Normal human rights would have sufficed, but human rights simply didn't exist under the Nazi regime.

[00:14:50] At least not for these people.

[00:14:52] Tobias: Subtle difference.

[00:14:53] Sabine: There is a difference.

[00:14:54] Tobias: But the one that makes a lot of difference.

[00:14:56] Sabine: It makes a lot of difference.

[00:14:57] For example, from the time that... let's say the spring of 1942,

[00:15:02] the Nazi regime had begun to deport millions of people from the western territories,

[00:15:05] the Soviet Union.

[00:15:07] And from then on, the number of prisoner of war camps tended to decrease.

[00:15:12] And more Eastern labor camps were set up.

[00:15:15] Because they were simply... were worse to treat without being harmed.

[00:15:20] Because if you look at discipline, for example, if a prisoner of war tried to escape,

[00:15:25] tried to escape, which happened very often, because the borders were close and very tempting.

[00:15:30] Then the Wehrmacht was responsible.

[00:15:32] In other words, they were picked up again.

[00:15:34] Wehrmacht officers were informed, they were picked up and taken back to the main camp.

[00:15:39] If a civilian worker tried to escape, the Gestapo was responsible.

[00:15:42] That means it was simply much easier.

[00:15:44] Less need for coordination, close chain of command.

[00:15:48] And civilian workers, especially the so-called Eastern workers, earned extremely little money.

[00:15:54] It wasn't a wage, it was a kind of expense allowance.

[00:15:57] And they got less food than others.

[00:16:00] So you couldn't fob off an Italian worker with the food that Eastern workers got.

[00:16:06] Tobias: You just mentioned that the escape attempts, especially by prisoners of war, are in your research,

[00:16:13] Did you find out that there were also escape attempts from the labor education camp?

[00:16:17] Successful or unsuccessful?

[00:16:20] Sabine: None.

[00:16:21] Tobias: None, right?

[00:16:22] Sabine: No, so not according to the files.

[00:16:25] And the problem with the files is that the Gestapo burned their files in April 1945.

[00:16:32] That means we often only know about the labor education camp from court cases,

[00:16:38] from death certificates, from eyewitness testimony, but not really from our own files.

[00:16:45] Tobias: That would be the next question anyway, how difficult it is,

[00:16:49] to somehow trace a camp of that size, where a lot of the files have been destroyed.

[00:16:57] Sabine: Interestingly, there are relatively many files hidden in municipal archives,

[00:17:00] many documents. That would have to be examined more closely, the community chroniclers would have to,

[00:17:04] local chroniclers would have to look into this matter, because municipal archives often contain real treasures,

[00:17:09] that no longer appear anywhere else. You can get a lot of information from court records,

[00:17:16] after 1945, the trials before the People's Court, which not only punished high treason,

[00:17:22] but also war crimes. That's when you get a trial against someone,

[00:17:29] who mistreated prisoners of war or civilian workers, you get information about how the individual

[00:17:34] camp functioned. You actually get information from many different sources,

[00:17:40] State building authorities, when it comes to finding a suitable location for a camp. Or when

[00:17:45] a company wants to build a warehouse and turns to the Innsbruck city building authority and the

[00:17:50] city planning office says, no, we don't want a warehouse to be immediately visible at the entrance to the town,

[00:17:54] because it really deters tourism. And that's why, for example, this camp in the

[00:18:00] Reichenau, they were all relatively close together, simply because the Gauleiter said,

[00:18:05] I don't want the camps to be spread all over the city, it's not safe

[00:18:08] simply an absurdity. The companies wanted, it was a bit of a clash, the companies wanted the

[00:18:12] camps as close as possible to their own premises and the Gauleiter wanted them as close as possible to

[00:18:16] concentrated in two places so that not everyone would notice it right away. Tobias: That's a good point anyway

[00:18:22] point you're making, that not everyone notices them. I only know it from some

[00:18:27] or at least from an interview I did with a contemporary witness who said,

[00:18:31] she never saw them marching through, the forced laborers. How do you see that? It must have been

[00:18:39] the people, especially if they were used by companies for work assignments, they had to be

[00:18:45] actually know where the people are from or where they are, not where their original home is,

[00:18:51] but where they are at the moment. Sabine: Mhm. Yes. Tobias: So the statement, so to speak, however you have it, you didn't know anything.

[00:18:58] Sabine: No, that's not credible. Forced laborers were in every community, even in the smallest one, and if they were

[00:19:04] only with one farmer, they were everywhere. And in the city they didn't hide at all

[00:19:11] concealment at all, because the prisoners of the AEL, for example, had to wear their own clothes and were made of

[00:19:15] lack of resources, they no longer had their own clothes, so the Gestapo simply used the

[00:19:18] the prisoners' civilian clothes with oil paint. So that you could recognize that they were prisoners.

[00:19:23] And normally people wore civilian clothes. That means,

[00:19:28] Civilian workers arrived in civilian clothes and prisoners of war wore uniforms,

[00:19:34] which made their escape more difficult. Because it allowed the prisoner of war to escape successfully,

[00:19:39] he needed civilian clothes and what was also very difficult is that prisoners of war were given

[00:19:44] money for their work, but not in Reichsmarks, but in camp money. These were vouchers,

[00:19:49] that could only be exchanged in the camp canteen. In other words, if someone wanted to successfully

[00:19:53] wanted to escape, they firstly needed a good knowledge of geography and secondly, if possible, a little knowledge of the language,

[00:19:59] drittens civilian clothes and fourthly real money. Tobias: Mhm. Not so easy to get. Sabine: Difficult.

[00:20:06] Tobias: And especially without the help of a local population. Sabine: That has the help of the

[00:20:11] local population. Tobias: Right.

[00:20:13] [Drehgeräusch] We've talked a lot about the forced laborers, prisoners of war. Were there any

[00:20:23] female prisoners in Reichenau or in the whole of Tyrol?

[00:20:28] Sabine: So prisoners of war are male per se. That is clear. Among the civilian labor force

[00:20:34] you have to differentiate between those who came from allied countries,

[00:20:37] who were theoretically volunteers. Then those who come from neutral states, in Vorarlberg

[00:20:43] it mainly concerns citizens from Switzerland. Or where citizenship is unclear.

[00:20:49] But if you look, if you look, there are different statistics for different

[00:20:52] points in time, in December 1943 almost drei quarter of all those employed in Tyrol were

[00:20:59] civilian workers from occupied countries, who were probably not there voluntarily. And if you look at these

[00:21:06] these almost drei quarters again, then you have to say that the overwhelming majority

[00:21:12] of them came either from Poland or from the occupied western territories of the Soviet Union and here

[00:21:17] especially from Ukraine. And what you see again is, if you look at it by gender

[00:21:22] that the vast majority of these forced laborers were women. That means,

[00:21:29] from the spring of 1942, forced labor not only tended to become more female, but and

[00:21:34] very importantly, tended to be younger. These people were deported from the age of 14,

[00:21:39] but younger ones were also possible. That means that in most of the camps, which were mainly

[00:21:44] work with Easter workers are young people. Tobias: But they weren't mainly in Reichenau

reichenau [00:21:51]. Sabine: No, they were mainly in agriculture, in the so-called development cooperatives.

[00:21:56] Every year the Gau appointed Aufbaugemeinden and they were especially subsidized with money,

[00:22:02] Construction of goods roads, cable cars, etc. And each of these development communities had

[00:22:08] its own, a so-called Russian or Eastern workers' camp. And the majority of them were female.

[00:22:13] Tobias: Hard to imagine actually. Sabine: Hard to imagine. On the other hand, the Nazi regime

[00:22:18] people from the East a low human value. What these women

[00:22:22] happened to these women was that they were not only extremely exploited. Textile industry, textile industry,

[00:22:27] agriculture, sometimes also in construction. They also had to suffer, for example,

[00:22:31] when they became pregnant, they were subjected to forced abortions.

[00:22:34] Tobias. I could also imagine... Sabine: And of course there were also rapes.

[00:22:38] Tobias: I was just going to... Sabine: Right. Tobias: That... Sabine: Yes, that's a side effect of coercion.

[00:22:44] Tobias: That means they were in their own camps in the places, in the areas of operation.

[00:22:49] Or is there another camp that is of interest or importance to women in that respect?

[00:22:54] importance for women? Sabine: Yes, the Gestapo AEL in Reichenau was only for men,

[00:23:00] theoretically. There were also women there, but only for a short time. And that means female

[00:23:05] Labor education prisoners were sent to the Heinkel company camp in Jenbach,

[00:23:09] today the Jenbach factory. Tobias: And do you know what happened to the women after that, so to speak, either with

[00:23:15] end of the regime, did they all return to their countries of origin?

[00:23:21] Did some of them stay there? Is that hard to grasp, probably, isn't it? Sabine: It's hard to believe.

[00:23:26] That's an empty field of research as far as Tyrol is concerned. It's important to differentiate,

[00:23:32] which country they came from. So French women, of course they went back, Dutch women

[00:23:36] and so on. But with the deportees from the East, it depends on which country they came from

[00:23:41] did they come from and do they still have family ties? Because, for example, as it is in

[00:23:45] Ukraine, Ukraine was largely destroyed. Many families simply no longer existed.

[00:23:51] The women were young, 15, 16 years old, many stayed here, some got married here

[00:23:56] and had children, quite normal. They became a Tyrolean family. Others went back and

[00:24:01] It was especially difficult to return to countries that were occupied by the Soviet army,

[00:24:07] because many were suspected of having been involved with the enemy, regardless of whether they were now

[00:24:12] deported or not. And they were considered traitors to the people and traitors to the country.

[00:24:18] It was very, very difficult. And what else there was, we have some large camps in Tyrol

[00:24:23] camps. The largest camp for former forced laborers was the one in Kufstein on the barracks grounds.

[00:24:29] And from 1945/46, the UN refugee aid organization at the time made an effort,

[00:24:36] to find host countries for them. So emigration to South America, USA, France,

[00:24:43] Away from Europe.Dre[Tobias: And let's jump back in time a little bit. We're going to the end

[00:24:54] of the war. The camp has been liberated. Are there any reports like the liberation of the

[00:25:01] camp or memories of the liberation of the camp? Sabine: There are initial investigations,

[00:25:06] because the Americans arrived with their own war crimes unit. There are

[00:25:12] first reports from this war crimes unit, which tried to take witness statements,

[00:25:17] also with perpetrators. But there was an exchange of zones at the beginning of July 1945. And then came the

[00:25:23] French military government and they had to start all over again. And that means,

[00:25:28] we actually had to wait until the big trial against the Gestapo chief Hilliges and some

[00:25:33] perpetrators of the AEL, there were rumors and there were always smaller trials, but this

[00:25:39] big, concentrated information we actually only got with the investigations against these

[00:25:45] persons. Tobias: And are documents from the investigations probably still kept in Paris? Or

[00:25:51] are there also local ones? Sabine: They are partly in Paris because the trial against Hilliges and the

[00:25:57] others did not take place before an Austrian court, but before a [00:26:00] French court

[00:26:00] French court in Innsbruck. Tobias: Im... what's it called... In? Sabine: In the Landhaus. Yes, because as soon as one of the abused or

[00:26:10] dead were members of the Allies, so US-Americans, British and so on, the

[00:26:16] French military justice took over. And that was a high court in Innsbruck.

[00:26:21] And that means that in the Reichenauprozess we have documents from Paris on the one hand,

[00:26:26] but also a lot of investigation documents from Innsbruck itself. Tobias: Are there also figures,

[00:26:31] how many have been charged? Well, I don't want to go into the persons in [00:26:36] detail

[00:26:36] in detail, but basically how many indictments there are, how many

[00:26:39] I don't know how many acquittals, if any, and so on. Sabine: At the trial of

[00:26:45] Hilliges, five men were still on trial. All five were perpetrators of the labor education camp.

[00:26:51] The problem was that when the Nazi regime collapsed in the summer of 1945, there was chaos,

[00:26:59] and many of the perpetrators of the labor education camp were Reich Germans. And in the summer of 1945

[00:27:07] the wish of the Tyrolean provincial government and also the French military government in the country,

[00:27:13] to deport as many people as possible so that fewer people needed food. And the

[00:27:18] Germans were seen as a security risk and as carriers of National Socialism, which allowed

[00:27:23] to pretend that Tyroleans had always been well-behaved and democratic. All right, in any case

[00:27:29] it means that many of the perpetrators of the AEL were interrogated, some were also interned,

[00:27:36] but were then expelled as Reich Germans. And we have some trials in Germany in part

[00:27:44] only in the 70s against these perpetrators. They were deported and then they were gone. There were

[00:27:49] there were always requests, when the French military went, yes, we need him for questioning,

[00:27:52] Yes, we're sorry, he's gone. That is, but you can't do that to the Tyrolean authorities

[00:27:59] because they didn't know that at the time. Tobias: That means, actually, they went to

[00:28:04] Germany, then somehow the thread broke, so to speak. Sabine: Exactly, that is, and then

[00:28:10] they could no longer be tried in Austria. There were always investigations

[00:28:15] against these people, but the Federal Republic did not extradite them for political offenses.

[00:28:18] Gauleiter Hofer, for example. Tobias: I was just going to say, Gauleiter Hofer the most prominent example? Sabine: Most prominent example, the act is

[00:28:24] several tens of centimeters thick and those were always extradition requests, but the Federal Republic of Germany has

[00:28:30] not extradited and many of these perpetrators of the AEL, they were quite normal, they were normal

[00:28:37] people, they went back to their civilian jobs, lived quite happily and often only decades

[00:28:42] later, it came up and then it needed dedicated courts and that was in the

[00:28:48] Federal Republic of Germany was no different to ours. It takes dedicated courts to bring perpetrators to justice.

[00:28:52] [Drehgeräusch] Now the labor education camp has been liberated. But the camps will not be destroyed, they will remain

[00:29:01] preserved, I think they will remain in municipal ownership. The subsequent use is also...is also

[00:29:06] an explosive time, you have to say. Shall we briefly look at the individual case of the labor education camp?

[00:29:13] Reichenau and then perhaps in a second step, what it was like in Tyrol.

[00:29:19] Sabine: Yes, the labor education camp did not belong to the city of Innsbruck, it belonged to the regional labor office

[00:29:24] and therefore the state building authority and the state building administration was responsible, where, by the way

[00:29:29] the files are located. A camp per se, these were barrack settlements and depending on the type of construction, that is, depending on the

[00:29:37] earlier the camp was built, the better it was structurally because it was built on a concrete foundation

[00:29:42] foundation. The later it was built, the worse the structure was, because then

[00:29:47] at most there was a pile grid foundation and they were verydroaffected by decay. But in view

[00:29:52] housing shortage, the camps simply remained until well into the 1960s and sometimes into the early 1970s

[00:29:59] were used as emergency housing. The Reichenau camp complex, including prisoners of war,

[00:30:05] Civilian workers' camp of the city, railroad and post office, AEL, were used as an army discharge point,

[00:30:11] because every Wehrmacht soldier who came back to Innsbruck needed a discharge paper,

[00:30:16] that was done there draoutside, both the Americans and then the French

[00:30:20] military government used the camp as an internment camp for Nazis before it was decided

[00:30:25] what happened to them was court, deportation etc. And the city of Innsbruck always

[00:30:29] tried, as soon as a barrack became free, they tried to set up emergency apartments there.

[00:30:33] In principle, a poor settlement was created and that happened in many camps in Tyrol,

[00:30:38] For example, the camp of the cutlery factory in Schwaz was later rebuilt after

[00:30:42] internment camp also became a poor settlement. Barracks were a coveted commodity. And in view of

[00:30:50] the many bombing raids in the city of Innsbruck, the housing shortage was simply so great that one had to

[00:30:53] really every room that was somehow suitable as a place to sleep. Tobias: In the

[00:30:59] Ideally, only temporarily. Sabine: Ideally temporarily, some people are,

[00:31:03] have been there for many, many years because they were simply too poor and earned too little,

[00:31:07] to afford decent housing. That was a slum. Tobias: As far as I know, there was also one in Wörgl

[00:31:11] there was one in Kufstein... Sabine: Many, in every municipality where there was a camp,

[00:31:16] they were emergency housing afterwards. Unless the barracks were in such a miserable state,

[00:31:20] that nothing really worked anymore. Tobias: It's really tough when you think about it. Sabine: It's tough. Because the

[00:31:26] barracks that were built later, because the Nazi regime also made

[00:31:30] made distinctions as to who lived there drin. That is to say, if they tended to use Reich German

[00:31:35] workers, then the barracks were usually double-walled,

[00:31:39] with a layer of insulation in between or with double-glazed windows. Was it just a barrack for

[00:31:44] Russians, it was a windowless thing. So they also attached great importance to that,

[00:31:50] that you could tell from the type of accommodation what value the people had.

[00:31:53] Tobias: Again, a very stupid question on my part, but did it then come to sarnation work on these

[00:32:00] yes, bad barracks, be it in Reichenau or whatever else in Tyrol,

[00:32:07] that the windows were changed... Sabine: Yes.

[00:32:11] Tobias: That was already, wasn't it? Sabine: Mhm. Well, the city, the municipal building authority of Innsbruck has been very

[00:32:16] to keep these emergency barracks in Reichenau up to standard,

[00:32:20] where they say, yes, it's just about suitable for people.

[00:32:25] Tobias: And then I think until the 60s? Sabine: Until the 60s, until the construction of the municipal building yard there draußen.

[00:32:32] Tobias: And that's when the entire camp complex, so to speak, was...

[00:32:38] Sabine: Yes, then all the barracks were torn down, the last remaining barracks were torn down.

[00:32:42] A new road network was laid out, Rossaugasse, Trientlgasse and so on,

[00:32:46] None of that had existed before. And businesses were established.

[00:32:50] In other words, we see exactly nothing in Reichenau today.

[00:32:54] Tobias: Except for the memorial stone and hopefully a memorial site. Sabine: Exactly.

[00:32:59] Tobias: Finally, a question on my part, do you think it would be very useful to talk about the camp

[00:33:08] more research time in the whole of Tyrol?

[00:33:13] Sabine: Yes, it would make a lot of sense. What I have worked on are the files of the Office of the Tyrolean Provincial Government,

[00:33:19] State Building Authority and Water Management Authority etc. Files of the district administration, which is just largely

[00:33:24] still missing, because the effort would also be very great, are files in municipal archives.

[00:33:29] But the municipal chroniclers [outro music starts in the background] would simply be called upon to take up the subject.

[00:33:33] [Outro music] Tobias: Archivwürdig is a production of the Stadtarchiv Innsbruck and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck.

[00:00:00] Tobias: Hello and welcome to the second episode of our dritten season of Archivwörtig,

[00:00:05] the podcast of the Innsbruck City Archive.

[00:00:08] After talking about the creation of the labor education camp in Reichenau in the first episode,

[00:00:14] in this episode, we look at the study that was carried out on the camp.

[00:00:19] I have invited the co-author of the study, Horst Schreiber, to join us.

[00:00:24] Horst Schreiber conducts intensive research on contemporary historical topics in Tyrol

[00:00:29] and is, among other things, director of the Michael Gaismair Society and of erinnern.at

[00:00:34] and, like Sabine Pitscheider, was a member of the expert commission for the Reichenau.

[00:00:40] In our conversation, we talk about the genesis of the study,

[00:00:44] what difficulties arose during the research and also go into details of the study.

[00:00:50] [Intro music]

[00:01:05] Tobias: Dear Horst, thank you for your time.

[00:01:08] We mainly talk about the Reichenau labor education camp in our season.

[00:01:14] You are very much involved from the research side, working on the Reichenau camp.

[00:01:23] I've already spoken to Sabine about the camp situation in Tyrol in general,

[00:01:28] but then also specifically about the Reichenau labor education camp, how it started, the changes.

[00:01:36] And today I would like to talk to you about a study commissioned by the city of Innsbruck,

[00:01:45] to the Science Office, in which you are involved, and the study was then carried out by yourself

[00:01:52] and also at this point mentioned Sabine Pitscheider, who also took part in the study.

[00:01:56] Can you perhaps tell us a little bit about how the study came about, how you were commissioned?

[00:02:03] why this study is being carried out?

[00:02:05] Horst: Well, the fact is that the city of Innsbruck set up a working group drei years ago,

[00:02:14] to think about how a dignified commemoration could be in the Reichenau,

[00:02:22] to also make a new memorial sign, new forms of memorial signs and a call for tenders

[00:02:31] which is currently underway, because this memorial stone was there in 1972,

[00:02:41] where the camp was located in Reichenau.

[00:02:46] That was very, very early by the standards of the time, because that was actually the memorial landscape in Tyrol,

[00:02:54] In the 80s, memorials began to be made more strongly, but not really,

[00:02:58] only in the 90s and 00s.

[00:03:00] But the memorial sign is, of course, something that today, both in terms of the inscription and the aesthetics

[00:03:10] is of course no longer so contemporary half a century later and because, especially in Reichenau

[00:03:18] a lot has happened with new buildings, conversions etc., so the location is also very unfavorable.

[00:03:27] That was the background.

[00:03:29] And Sabine Pitscheider and I were on this commission and in the course of this it was also clear from our side,

[00:03:40] that there must also be a certain form of personalization, whatever a memorial sign will look like,

[00:03:49] but that is a prerequisite and that it is also necessary to at least take an approach,

[00:03:57] how many people died there in the first place and what can be determined.

[00:04:04] As I said, very, very late.

[00:04:07] We put forward that it was necessary and then the commission or the city of Innsbruck quickly decided,

[00:04:15] that we would pursue it more professionally.

[00:04:18] And as I said, the documentation level is the file situation is very difficult

[00:04:27] and so on the one hand there are the investigations that the Austrian side, i.e. the Tyrolean courts, have carried out,

[00:04:35] about individual perpetrators or people who were suspected of having committed crimes

[00:04:41] and on the other hand, of course, the very broad surveys that the French authorities carried out after 1945,

[00:04:51] which ultimately resulted in a major process that was organized by the now military government,

[00:05:01] i.e. by appropriately professionally trained judges etc.

[00:05:05] And that used to be such a large inventory to look through

[00:05:11] and on the other hand it was clear that people died in the camp,

[00:05:16] But the people also died in the hospital in Innsbruck or in the hospital, that is, in blocks of the hospital,

[00:05:24] Hall died.

[00:05:26] On the one hand, you had to look at the autopsy findings, which still exist,

[00:05:31] just look through the city archives, a bit about Hall as well

[00:05:35] and I just found a collection in the archives in Paris,

[00:05:42] where these reports contained the coroner's findings from Innsbruck and Hall.

[00:05:49] In other words, that was practically the fund that we worked with

[00:05:54] and then came up with this total of 112 people.

[00:06:01] In the meantime, we're already at 114 or 116 people,

[00:06:05] because of course the whole thing is never completely finished

[00:06:08] and on the other hand there is a problem, namely there are many, many people from the camp,

[00:06:20] where it was practically a transit camp, came to Dachau.

[00:06:25] Also in other concentration camps Auschwitz etc. but to Dachau.

[00:06:28] And then it's very difficult for you to distinguish

[00:06:32] and of course there were some who were already so physically exhausted,

[00:06:41] so shortly before their death, be it, the one problem is the food, so malnutrition

[00:06:48] and the other difficulty is that excessive violence was practiced.

[00:06:54] And we can clearly assume that in many cases, I think, we could say on the basis of the files.

[00:07:03] So they still came to Dachau, but they were practically already [short laugh] dead beforehand.

[00:07:08] And those who were already close to death so that they wouldn't die in the camp, who were quickly transferred,

[00:07:14] So we can't find out that number.

[00:07:19] Tobias: You said that there were many of the at least 114 dead in the Reichenau camp.

[00:07:26] How can you read that from the sources, is it clearer for the listeners?

[00:07:32] is it written like this drinnen, died in the Reichenau camp, what causes of death were recorded there?

[00:07:39] was it made so obvious?

[00:07:42] Horst: Well, one thing is clear, it's a procedure, as it is in peacetime.

[00:07:49] It needs a coroner's report and a statement of the reason why someone died.

[00:07:57] That's also the case in the extermination centers, be it for people with mental illnesses in Hartheim,

[00:08:05] the case or in the concentration camps.

[00:08:07] The problem is, as you ask the question, which of these is true?

[00:08:13] Now it's the case that most of them were made by the camp doctor, Alois Pizzinini,

[00:08:21] who came maybe twice a week.

[00:08:24] On the one hand, you have to say that in a number of cases you can prove that it's "fake" [forged].

[00:08:31] Where he also says at the trial, the camp manager told me exactly

[00:08:35] I have to write in a medical cause.

[00:08:38] Otherwise, there are certainly causes of death that we can explain very well.

[00:08:46] So, simply put, the one that's so common is pneumonia.

[00:08:52] Why is that?

[00:08:54] Well, one of the perverse forms of punishment was the so-called cold bath.

[00:09:02] So, especially in winter or in fall, late fall at low temperatures.

[00:09:09] And then the corresponding prisoner in the so-called bunker.

[00:09:14] That was a tiny holding cell

[00:09:17] which was freezing cold, not heated, cold concrete floor in there.

[00:09:23] And a whole series of prisoners died there.

[00:09:27] Whereby it was always the full intention that they should die.

[00:09:32] And apart from that, it was only under the guiding signs of the punishment from which they died.

[00:09:39] The other are then various causes of death, where it becomes quite clear to us,

[00:09:45] These are causes of death that arise due to malnutrition.

[00:09:51] So, the body is weakened, it is weakened for infectious diseases etc.

[00:09:58] So, that's how you can imagine it.

[00:10:00] And you always have to take a very, very critical look at what is listed here as the cause of death drin.

[00:10:08] As I said, we can link the storage conditions to a number of causes of death.

[00:10:13] And with others, well, things that have something to do with the heart are always very common.

[00:10:21] Now it can often be true in that sense.

[00:10:25] I'm not a doctor, but most of the time, you don't die from one cause.

[00:10:31] But this last cause can be true, but it doesn't explain why it happens.

[00:10:37] At some point the heart stops.

[00:10:39] So, as I said, we can explain a lot and some things are highly questionable.

[00:10:45] Tobias: And if I have it right in my head, many people have also been mistreated with punishments,

[00:10:50] and then also with beatings, which is also reflected in the mortuary reports.

[00:10:56] Where it's then about a large or death by sepsis, because the wounds and the people,

[00:11:03] who were of course punished were not treated by a doctor.

[00:11:06] Horst: Yes, that's a very big, important topic and a very exciting topic that I would like to discuss in more detail.

[00:11:15] Based on these two people, Alois Pizzinini and Matthias Köllemann, one is the camp doctor,

[00:11:20] and the other is the so-called medical officer.

[00:11:23] With Pizzinini, that's interesting, to say what is a porter, who is a porter,

[00:11:29] who has what responsibility, he goes in at most twice a week, he's very willing,

[00:11:37] then always presents himself as someone who couldn't have done anything at all.

[00:11:41] And Matthias Köllemann, he's much stronger than the perpetrators, he refuses the prisoners en masse,

[00:11:50] who would have been dependent on care.

[00:11:55] And after the inmates are maltreated to an extremely high degree,

[00:12:01] beaten green and blue, from wooden sticks to billets, whips, fists, kicks etc.,

[00:12:11] it is clear that wounds are wounds, these wounds do not heal because the appropriate care is lacking,

[00:12:19] they become inflamed, and if the body gets too little to eat at the same time, it is more susceptible.

[00:12:26] And beyond that is one of the essential levels of the Gestapo camp, the labor education camp,

[00:12:32] Reception camp, transit camp, transit camp, camp for political prisoners,

[00:12:38] yes, something where forced labor is performed.

[00:12:41] In the camp, but above all in the various field detachments and also when the prisoners

[00:12:49] is in a very bad physical condition or has just been severely beaten,

[00:12:56] over time, only a very, very small proportion of prisoners are allowed to walk or if they are almost unable to walk at all,

[00:13:04] that they are taken to the infirmary in the sanitary barracks.

[00:13:09] That means they have to continue working in such catastrophic physical conditions.

[00:13:16] And this whole complex of working and living conditions, like in this case wounds, wounds do not heal,

[00:13:25] there's gangrene etc., that's another reason, because you're very, very right,

[00:13:31] why so many have died.

[00:13:34] Tobias: You have now collected a lot of data, a lot of biographical data as well.

[00:13:40] Based on that, you can also make larger statistics of the camp and in this case, of course, of the dead in the camp.

[00:13:50] Can we perhaps also go into this very briefly, on the one hand, where did they come from, or

[00:13:56] In this case, only the dead of many of them, we don't know where they came from or where they went.

[00:14:01] Just look at the nationalities and maybe the age a little bit,

[00:14:07] How old were they on average, which age groups were more present, which less.

[00:14:12] Horst: Well, in any case, a typical feature of the camp is that it was initially intended as a reception camp for Italians,

[00:14:22] who initially came here in friendly status under Mussolini as normal civilian workers,

[00:14:30] but who then wanted to return home because the conditions, pay, work, leisure time, bombs in Germany were so bad,

[00:14:43] that they wanted to go back and then they were caught and re-educated through work.

[00:14:50] That means that among the dead we have one, the strongest group, practically the Italians.

[00:14:58] But here you have to say that this large number of deaths is due to this,

[00:15:04] in the case of Italian nationals, that they first appear on a massive scale,

[00:15:09] when Mussolini was overthrown in 1943 and Italy changed fronts.

[00:15:16] The Italians were given a new status from a friendly state to military internees

[00:15:22] and here we also have Italians everywhere outside the Reichenau camp,

[00:15:29] initially fought as friends with the other German soldiers, whether it was in Greece or here with us,

[00:15:38] They are now treated the worst alongside Jews, Jews and the so-called Eastern workers, i.e. the Soviet states and Poland.

[00:15:48] What's very interesting here, beyond the Reichenau camp, is that Tyroleans and South Tyroleans also treated Italians very badly,

[00:15:56] because here this story of the Walschen, the South Tyrolean question, again they are cowards and change fronts.

[00:16:05] So the Italians are now being attacked with tremendous brutality.

[00:16:09] In Greece, for example, they're being shot by the hundreds.

[00:16:14] That is also reflected in Tyrol.

[00:16:18] The Italians didn't necessarily only come from Tyrol, they also came from Germany or other areas of present-day Austria

[00:16:25] and in the last two years of the war they were treated incredibly brutally, which is why so many people died.

[00:16:31] The other thing that is quite typical are the two nationalities that are at the very, very bottom of the Nazi racial hierarchy.

[00:16:41] Besides Jews and Jews, there are the Poles on the one hand and, as I mentioned before, the Easter workers on the other.

[00:16:50] Simply put, Soviet nationals and here very, very strongly from Ukraine,

[00:16:58] because the Ukrainians coming to Tyrol are an extremely large proportion of people who were deported here.

[00:17:09] And the age structure of these people is very, very young and that also reflects the fact that you have quite a lot of youthfulness among the murdered,

[00:17:20] is only the apparent contradiction that young people are capable of resistance, but on the one hand it has to do with the fact that they are especially

[00:17:29] are used for forced labor under the most brutal conditions. In the over 50s or

[00:17:34] old people are relatively few in number. Of the dead, as I said, Ukrainians,

[00:17:43] Soviet citizens in general and Poles are the strongest group. Together they are even more

[00:17:51] than the Italians. But otherwise number one would be Italy, Poland, Soviet Union including Ukraine,

[00:18:01] which you don't particularly say today because of this conflict, the war that's going on now. And

[00:18:07] then there are locals, Austrians, they are about 13 people and then there are a few,

[00:18:14] different countries, yes. Tobias: In the comments, in this study, it becomes a list,

[00:18:24] the victims, so to speak. Every now and then there is also a place of deployment in the notes. Where do they come from?

[00:18:33] or how do you get this information, that you can really use it selectively for companies or for

[00:18:40] locations, i.e. where they were used locally, where do you get such information? Horst: One is like this,

[00:18:46] in the coroner's report, the location must also be specified. The location is something that

[00:18:53] rule is correct, if it is stated, in the camp or somewhere outside. So you don't have to

[00:19:00] imagine, as far as the field detachments are concerned, the Reichenau camp, as well as the other camps,

[00:19:09] that were not labor camps, labor education camps Reichenau, that is also still from

[00:19:13] the Reichspost, the Reichsbahn had its own camp, two camps of the city of Innsbruck, prisoner-of-war camps [00:19:18] and the Reichsbahn

[00:19:18] camps, civilian labor camps. But all of these prisoners were sent to the external detachments of companies

[00:19:25] and one particularly inglorious company was Stippler. So a very large part

[00:19:32] of course concerns construction work or, where they are even further away, clean-up work after

[00:19:41] bombing raids, i.e. rubble plus removal of unexploded ordnance. And that was very dangerous, of course. And the

[00:19:48] Unexploded ordnance disposal was now not only in Innsbruck, but also far beyond,

[00:19:55] for example in Brixlegg. And that's where things happened with fatal consequences.

[00:20:03] Tobias: We can't name and mention all the victims in our conversation now, but that's why

[00:20:12] nevertheless, perhaps we'll look at individual fates as examples. There is one

[00:20:18] right and from my point of view it also reflects very well this vastness of where people came from

[00:20:25] to this camp in Reichenau and you've already researched drüabout that. Horst: Yes, so something,

[00:20:31] what you wouldn't expect now are Jews and Jews from Libya, who specifically had a

[00:20:40] had British citizenship. During the war, Italy was the quasi colonial ruler in

[00:20:49] Libya. And from 1942, when the war became more dynamic, dynamic in the negative sense for the

[00:20:58] German Reich and for Italy, which were allies, the anti-Jewish

[00:21:03] measures also took effect in Italy. And from 1942, the Italian authorities deported them,

[00:21:11] Libyan Jews and Jewesses to a separate concentration camp on the Tunisian border and other parts

[00:21:19] take them to Italy, to various places in Italy and then some to the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp.

[00:21:27] And there are 62 Libyan nationals, of Jewish-British origin, who are then sent to

[00:21:37] Innsbruck, to the Reichenau camp in the fall of 1943. And that's actually

[00:21:46] less individual people than family groups. And here we have a very interesting

[00:21:54] report from survivors, which was written soon after the liberation from National Socialism

[00:22:00] they were interviewed and that's why we have a whole range of information here,

[00:22:06] how they fared. And with this group, as I said, they were from

[00:22:14] fall 1943 to mid-April 1944 and two of them died. One

[00:22:23] young one at the age of 27, Shalom Reginiano, and on the other side a really old

[00:22:32] man, old man, where there are different dates of his birth between 70 and

[00:22:38] 85, whose grave is just at the cemetery, at the military cemetery. I came across it by chance and

[00:22:47] That was the beginning again, coincidence. What is that, what kind of name is that?

[00:22:53] and the grave has the corresponding Jewish sign. I couldn't explain it to myself

[00:23:00] and the Italian Briton, that was completely unclear and then I followed it up

[00:23:05] and then came to the conclusion that he belonged to this group. With him we know the

[00:23:09] cause of death. We do with Reginiano, which is exactly what we talked about before

[00:23:16] talked about before. A strong young man who is constantly committed to very hard work

[00:23:22] with a poor diet, who also falls ill as a result, who doesn't receive this care

[00:23:30] and who is then practically admitted to the sanitary barracks at the very end, where there are

[00:23:35] but it's too late and he dies there too. We learn from these reports of the arrival,

[00:23:46] where you are already beaten or where everyone has to strip naked. Among them are,

[00:23:51] it was actually a men's camp, but especially in this group we can see that

[00:23:55] there were always women, although, as I said, it was not intended for women

[00:24:00] that it was more the Jenbach camp, about which we know nothing, hardly anything, and there are

[00:24:08] these humiliation rituals too. The women have to strip naked under the mocking laughter

[00:24:13] of the guards. The women work in the men's camp on the outskirts, they have to go to the makeshift

[00:24:19] airport in winter, poorly clad in clogs, rags around their feet,

[00:24:27] Snow, trudging and alone people from Libya who come here with the climate,

[00:24:33] There were also a relatively large number of elderly people who suffered as a result,

[00:24:38] severe frostbite was also typical of the camp. The happiness in misfortune consisted of this,

[00:24:44] that there was a deal between the British and the Germans about the prisoner exchange,

[00:24:50] so that then the Red Cross was these 60, but 61, with 61 I say something else,

[00:25:01] they were then released in April 1944 and were able to go to Switzerland, France

[00:25:08] and they survived. There is something special, the 61st person, a woman was pregnant and

[00:25:16] she gave birth to her child in the hospital in Innsbruck, they survived and the interesting thing

[00:25:25] is that in the early noughties, when Austria first had to get comfortable under international Druck

[00:25:33] to address the issue of forced labor and also to make compensation payments,

[00:25:40] I mean compensation payments, that was 5,000, 6,000, 7,000 euros, but still, and that's where

[00:25:47] from the group of Libyan Jews, where most of them were already

[00:25:51] were already dead, two came forward and one of them was the woman, the baby at the time, who survived

[00:26:03] and who came forward when she was older and who was living in Israel at the time

[00:26:10] was living in Israel. Tobias: Of course, we've now spoken up to the time of 1945, but the study also deals with

[00:26:18] also deals with the time after that, which is also clearly stated in the preface to the study atdrÃ

[00:26:23] because there is also a research desideratum there. Let's perhaps conclude with

[00:26:29] briefly return to this period, the subsequent use, which many Innsbruck residents probably also

[00:26:35] or Innsbruck residents have also experienced, those who are still alive. Horst: Yes, so at first the camp was very

[00:26:42] was used in a multifunctional way. That means on the one hand and the photos we have of the

[00:26:49] camp are actually from the time when it was no longer a Nazi camp and there... the

[00:26:59] survivors then become refugees or "displaced persons" [person who is not resident in this place]. Then you have to

[00:27:05] you have to imagine it like this, tens of thousands of "displaced persons" from the various parts where the Nazis had

[00:27:13] occupied the various states, were also streaming through Tyrol, through Innsbruck, because many

[00:27:22] then move on or are accommodated here in various refugee camps or

[00:27:27] also Italians who want to go home via the Brenner Pass. That means we have a lot here,

[00:27:32] a lot of refugees, people who are interested can go over when they go to YouTube or Reichenau

[00:27:37] and so on, they come to a clip of a few minutes where you can see people at the

[00:27:44] train station in Innsbruck these people and also in the camp and it's primarily these

[00:27:51] people who had fled or survivors. Then the camp is also used as a kind of

[00:27:59] "Army discharge point". That means that there are masses of people who come or are released

[00:28:05] are released as prisoners of war and the French authorities first assign

[00:28:12] the people so that they, because you have to look, is this an SS man, from that area, is something

[00:28:19] investigated and then they are released and can then return to their home areas or to

[00:28:24] different areas to Tyrol. Another large group that is then created here is that the

[00:28:31] French authorities then also use the camp as a denazification camp. That means,

[00:28:37] that a lot of National Socialists are there for a certain time and we have several camps,

[00:28:44] where ex-Nazis are housed. One is this Oradour in Schwaz, the other is for example

[00:28:51] For example, Reichenau, Oradour in Schwaz and the Kufstein fortress are the biggest ones anyway. There are quite

[00:28:59] huge exchange between them. Prisoners, Nazis, wherever there's anything that needs medical attention,

[00:29:06] bigger, they come to the Reichenau because it's easier to take them to the hospital in Innsbruck

[00:29:12] or take them somewhere else. Then some took the chance to escape. Yes, and then, and that's

[00:29:19] very, very interesting. That's also a similar story to the one we have in Schwaz, like me

[00:29:25] recently investigated in Schwaz. The last stage, which is the longest, that is

[00:29:33] the accommodation of the poor. So Reichenau is a settlement for the poor. That means we have in

[00:29:41] Austria also had an incredible housing shortage in Tyrol after the war due to bombing

[00:29:49] etc. And the barrack camp existence is something that lasted well into the 1960s, even in Reichenau,

[00:29:58] until the early 1970s, dominated the cityscape, both in Innsbruck and in Schwaz,

[00:30:05] in Kufstein, in Wörgl and so on and so forth. And of course it's typical that on the one hand

[00:30:14] National Socialism in Tyrol was only researched very late, that certain topics, such as the

[00:30:21] we're talking about right now, were excessively late, too late for a lot of things, and that this was accompanied by

[00:30:29] to another topic that was and is extremely neglected, that is the history

[00:30:35] of poverty, the history of the poor. And especially in this Reichenau camp, where the marginalized

[00:30:45] people are "ghettoized", who then not only live down there as homeless people, but who

[00:30:54] are very, very quickly, badly, slandered, slandered, but who thus become such a

[00:31:02] sense of belonging to each other against mainstream society. And you have to

[00:31:08] imagine one thing, today Reichenau is clearly Innsbruck, I don't just mean as a geographical

[00:31:15] affiliation, but yes, you're there by bike, by bus and so on, but back then it was

[00:31:22] the outside, that was also one of the reasons why the Nazis used this reason,

[00:31:28] to set up the camps there. And that means that the ones in Innsbruck, they were the

[00:31:34] better ones and the ones in Reichenau, those are the abandoned ones, you could also

[00:31:40] a few areas in Innsbruck from the slaughterhouse, PremstraÃe, Stalingrad etc.,

[00:31:46] That is, that is, where are these children being educated? So this poverty that is inherited

[00:31:53] then practically continues and that goes on practically until the Olympics, where a lot of

[00:32:02] new living space is created and then the number of barracks that become more and more run-down and

[00:32:10] more and more dilapidated, they will be gradually dismantled and you can't imagine that

[00:32:19] then the poor hip-hip-hurra will all end up in the high-rise buildings. That means that there are

[00:32:26] investigations in the city of Innsbruck and a whole series of these people are considered not to be

[00:32:31] unfit to live in, so that they end up in the hotspots I just mentioned,

[00:32:39] like in Stalingrad, the slaughterhouse and so on, they were moved there or given a whole row of

[00:32:46] apartments then later in the high-rise buildings, where quite a few were no longer in the best

[00:32:53] condition. So as I said, quite a few families can move, but a lot of them are leaving

[00:33:00] from a place with a bad reputation for marginalized people to the next place with a bad reputation

[00:33:06] place. And this practically closes the circle to my other field of research, which always turns out like this

[00:33:14] overlapped, namely children and young people in out-of-home care and such barracks

[00:33:22] camps, be it Reichenau or other barracks that existed in Innsbruck. There are also

[00:33:29] very, very many so-called Yenish, who were labeled as Karner, Tyrolean gypsies, etc.

[00:33:35] An extremely large proportion of children and young people are recruited from these areas,

[00:33:41] who are placed in residential care, where the correspondingly very high proportion of the next

[00:33:48] excesses of violence then await them. As I said, the story of Amut, that's something else,

[00:33:54] where further research needs to be done. But at least some exciting things have already appeared,

[00:34:00] or also the Bocksiedlung, which is also practically a part of the Reichenau, which is also the city archive in

[00:34:06] published by Ms. Hollaus, where there are some very exciting stories. You can see,

[00:34:13] that this Nazi era reaches directly and indirectly far into the present, that it blows in and

[00:34:22] affects subject areas, geographies and other topics where we would not think,

[00:34:30] that this still has anything to do with National Socialism. [Outro music]

[00:34:33] Tobias: Archivwürrdig is a production of the Innsbruck City Archive and part of Stadtstimmen,

[00:34:53] the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck.

[00:00:00] Tobias: Hello and welcome to the dritten episode of our dritten season of Archivwürdig,

[00:00:05] the podcast of the Innsbruck City Archive.

[00:00:08] In this episode, we take a look at the former Reichenau labor education camp from an archaeological perspective.

[00:00:14] I have invited the archaeologist Barbara Hausmair to talk about this topic.

[00:00:19] Together with her team, Barbara Hausmair was commissioned by the city of Innsbruck to carry out archaeological investigations

[00:00:25] at the site of the former camp.

[00:00:29] Together we talk about this research process, among other things.

[00:00:33] What insights were gained from the work and we also think about

[00:00:38] about further archaeological excavations in Tyrol during the Nazi era.

[00:00:56] [Intro music] Tobias: Dear Barbara, thank you for your time for being with us today.

[00:01:00] Archaeology is something you associate with when you go out into the population,

[00:01:05] mainly with, to put it bluntly, with old stuff, in other words everything that concerns quasi ancient things.

[00:01:10] In Innsbruck in particular, many people probably think of the Veldidena excavations, the Roman remains.

[00:01:17] Can you perhaps explain to us briefly, just briefly, when they started digging not even 100 years ago?

[00:01:24] Barbara: That's a very good question. In fact, the archaeology of the recent past

[00:01:28] is also a very young archaeology as a scientific discipline.

[00:01:31] In Austria, about 30 years old, if you want to look at it.

[00:01:35] And I think it's a very late development within archaeological research,

[00:01:39] because archaeology, as you say, was originally mainly concerned with older eras.

[00:01:43] That is constantly changing, because archaeology today is no longer so much about

[00:01:48] the question of the past in the sense of distance, but is actually defined by its sources.

[00:01:53] So we're actually trying to gain access to history through material remains.

[00:01:58] And it doesn't really matter what time they are from.

[00:02:01] And in recent years or decades this has also led to the development of an archaeology of the recent past,

[00:02:07] in which we are able to access this more recent past through archaeological traces.

[00:02:12] Tobias: From your point of view, is it easier to dig for more recent times than for the more distant past?

[00:02:20] Barbara: Yes and no. So I think on the one hand, if you want to look at it methodically,

[00:02:24] it is of course very exciting to research the more recent past,

[00:02:27] because we have a very dense parallel tradition through writing, images or oral sources, of course.

[00:02:32] And this creates a much denser picture and also makes the interpretation of archaeological finds

[00:02:38] much richer than is sometimes possible in prehistory, for example.

[00:02:42] On the other hand, it's also very difficult archaeology,

[00:02:45] because this past is of course very close to us dran.

[00:02:47] It's something where we still have some people who lived through the times we're researching,

[00:02:51] where family histories are shaped.

[00:02:53] And accordingly, this is very important to me, archaeology is not just a look into the past,

[00:02:58] but it is also very much about how we deal with this past today.

[00:03:02] And of course the archaeology of the Nazi era is also important here

[00:03:04] is certainly a more difficult archaeology in this respect, because we are also involved somewhere in these discourses,

[00:03:09] how do we deal with this past?

[00:03:13] And that makes it a big challenge, of course.

[00:03:16] Tobias: I've invited you now of course, maybe I haven't even mentioned it yet,

[00:03:20] but you were also involved or commissioned, I think, by the commission or by the city,

[00:03:26] in the area of the former Reichenau labor education camp

[00:03:32] So not you alone, of course, that's clear, but you and your team,

[00:03:37] excavations to find traces of the camp,

[00:03:45] can you perhaps also briefly explain to us how this assignment came about

[00:03:49] and what the process was like and maybe just who was involved.

[00:03:56] Barbara: The city of Innsbruck has been trying for some time now to create a new memorial site in Reichenau

[00:04:01] for the victims of National Socialism who were imprisoned there in the labor education camp,

[00:04:06] but also in the neighboring camp complexes, and in the run-up to this project planning, the city decided

[00:04:12] that it is certainly also essential to carry out further intensive research into the history of these camps,

[00:04:17] but also of the people who were imprisoned or died there

[00:04:23] and that has on the one hand led to very intensive research from the historical side.

[00:04:27] I believe Sabine Pitscheider will also be speaking here in this podcast.

[00:04:31] And on the other hand, this research has of course also raised the question of the exact historical location.

[00:04:38] How big was this camp complex? How was it structured?

[00:04:42] Can we actually find any information in the spatial structure about the history of these camps there in Reichenau?

[00:04:50] But of course the question also arose for the creation of the memorial site, which was certainly also in the interests of the city,

[00:04:55] are there really any material remains in the sense of buildings?

[00:04:59] that are perhaps still hidden somewhere in the industrial estate today

[00:05:04] and it was with this in mind that they approached me and my colleague Barbara Pöll from

[00:05:08] monumentGUT with the request to see if we could do something about it from an archaeological point of view.

[00:05:14] And the whole thing actually started in such a way that we initially, well, everyone who knows the Reichenau,

[00:05:18] knows that today it is a very heavily built-up commercial area, asked us the question

[00:05:23] and how can we first find out if there is anything left above ground?

[00:05:26] and how can we then assess whether there is perhaps at least archaeologically, i.e. in the soil, in the soil findings,

[00:05:31] is still preserved. And we did that initially by evaluating historical plans

[00:05:36] and also written sources and oral tradition relating to the spatial structure of the camp,

[00:05:42] but above all using aerial photographs from the time of the Second World War,

[00:05:46] which were actually taken by the Allies at the time as part of their air raids or air wars

[00:05:51] and first of all simply tried to show the entire spatial situation and the development of the camps,

[00:05:55] between 1940/41 and 1945 and beyond, of course, until the demolition of the last barracks in the 1960s.

[00:06:05] And on the basis of this aerial photo analysis, we then tried to see if there were still individual buildings somewhere,

[00:06:10] That didn't turn out to be the case, so today there are really no buildings left above ground,

[00:06:15] that would somehow still be directly connected to the camp.

[00:06:19] But we also managed to compare these historical aerial photographs with the modern aerial photographs and satellite images

[00:06:26] to identify areas that have not yet been built on deeply, i.e. that do not have basements

[00:06:32] and where there is potentially the possibility that there are still archaeological traces in the ground.

[00:06:38] Tobias: That means you've done the theoretical or partly practical work in advance.

[00:06:44] How did the excavations come about, is it very difficult with such a heavily built-up and, yes, used, I mean

[00:06:55] The building yard is still there and of course still in operation and the only one in the city, i.e. where everyone goes.

[00:07:04] Is it..., does it make the work for excavations very difficult or is it always the case or mostly the case anyway?

[00:07:15] Barbara: Of course, in urban areas, no matter what kind of archaeology you do, it's always problematic,

[00:07:20] because we simply have a very strong modern imprint.

[00:07:23] In the case of Reichenau, it was clear to us right from the start that the possibility of actually doing archaeology in the ground,

[00:07:29] would be very limited, simply because the development there is really massive,

[00:07:34] the demolition was very massive and, of course, because the area is used intensively today.

[00:07:38] All Innsbruck residents are probably familiar with the recycling center, they know how much traffic there is, even on weekends

[00:07:43] and of course the municipal building yard.

[00:07:45] But what we tried to do, actually through our aerial photo analysis, was first of all to clarify whether the potential was there at all.

[00:07:52] And when we saw that there were still very, very small residual areas in the southern area,

[00:07:56] of today's building yard, which was part of the camp area during the Nazi era, which has not yet been built on.

[00:08:01] That was of course an important indication for us that there was still some preservation in the ground,

[00:08:06] but also in the traffic areas, which are not underground.

[00:08:10] And the next step was to carry out a geophysical prospection,

[00:08:14] so a non-destructive archaeology and actually tried to find out via measurements of physical properties in the ground,

[00:08:22] whether it might still be possible to recognize lines or structures that we could connect with the camp complex.

[00:08:28] Tobias: Do you have these geophysical measurements or can you perhaps explain them a little bit more,

[00:08:33] Is that also about archaeology or do you also refer to the, stupidly said, external or from the university?

[00:08:40] parallel knowledge from other institutions that are there to support you, or is it already very much anchored in archaeology?

[00:08:48] Barbara: Here in Innsbruck, we really have the advantage that we have expertise at our institute,

[00:08:54] with Professor Grabherr, who has also been practicing geophysics, i.e. archaeological prospecting methods, for many years,

[00:09:00] and we received support from his team, with David Imre, to carry out the measurements on site.

[00:09:06] I don't want to get into the physics right now, but maybe to put it a bit bluntly,

[00:09:10] you drive over the areas of interest with measuring devices, so to speak, and then by measuring the physical properties

[00:09:16] actually creates a depth image of the ground. It's not an X-ray, but I think in layman's terms you can imagine,

[00:09:21] that it's a bit like x-raying the soil. And then you can see the structures in the soil, so to speak,

[00:09:27] that can be pipe trenches, but also, for example, the remains of foundations or something similar.

[00:09:32] And this virtual image gives you an initial insightdruinto whether there are potentially still structures there,

[00:09:38] that are actually still connected to the labor education camp, for example.

[00:09:43] Perhaps one more sentence about the fact that it was certainly particularly challenging to work on these very heavily built-up areas

[00:09:50] to do geophysics. On the one hand, there are technical measurement problems, but the big challenge is actually also,

[00:09:56] that the buildings, as they are today, essentially have exactly the same orientation,

[00:10:02] like the buildings in the labor education camp back then. And that's always one of those things,

[00:10:06] What I might recognize as lines on the aerial photographs is difficult to really determine from the virtual image, so to speak,

[00:10:14] Is this what really belongs to the warehouse or are these perhaps older line installations that no longer exist on the plans?

[00:10:20] Of course, we also need expertise from somewhere else, in this case of course from the city,

[00:10:25] which has tried to support us as much as possible with pipe plans so that we can rule out a few things in advance,

[00:10:31] what are structures that really belong to the building yard and what are potentially really structures that are still from the Nazi era?

[00:10:38] could be present in the ground.

[00:10:40] Tobias: Did the geophysical data also give rise to a suspicion that there are still remains here and there,

[00:10:49] or did you just, to put it stupidly, blindly drago for it?

[00:10:53] Barbara: No, we didn't go blindly drauf, that's why [laughs] we did it for geophysics.

[00:10:57] What we did was that we tried to see what anomalies we could see on the measurement images.

[00:11:02] And then we basically carried out a process of elimination.

[00:11:05] On the one hand, we looked to see if they matched modern pipeline plans,

[00:11:09] and then you can more or less rule out the possibility that these are historical structures.

[00:11:13] And in the second step, where we saw that we had no information that these were modern canal structures or similar,

[00:11:18] we then looked to see whether they corresponded with the infrastructure that we recognized on the aerial photographs, on the historical ones.

[00:11:24] And so it was then possible to narrow down certain areas where there was a high potential.

[00:11:30] But I would still like to point this out again [laughs] because it's important that there is of course a source of error here too.

[00:11:35] In the excavations, we actually had the case that one of these linear structures that we had in the measurement image,

[00:11:41] turned out to be a water pipe that was still in use, but simply wasn't on any pipe plan,

[00:11:46] but which would actually have fitted in well with the area of this accommodation barrack 1,

[00:11:51] which we then tried to locate and identify in the archaeology.

[00:11:56] And that's always the challenge.

[00:11:58] So geophysics is a very, very important element or a very important method for preliminary exploration.

[00:12:04] But in the end, we can only really know what we have in the ground when we actually start digging.

[00:12:13] [Drenoise] Tobias: Let's take the next step. You're really moving on to digging now, how much time has been allowed,

[00:12:23] how do you estimate how much time is used for excavation or even gets,

[00:12:30] so time, how much time you are allowed to dig at all.

[00:12:33] It's probably not just your own estimate that counts.

[00:12:37] Barbara: It's always a very nasty question when you ask archaeologists how much time they would like to have to dig.

[00:12:42] We are a very slow business [both laugh].

[00:12:44] No, we tried in this case, on the one hand because it was clear, of course,

[00:12:47] that even if we find something, it will probably only be to a very fragmented degree

[00:12:52] and actually the primary question was, are there any substantial traces left?

[00:12:56] So we agreed with the city that we would actually do a kind of small test excavation.

[00:13:01] This is basically only possible on very, very few areas on the site of the current building yard,

[00:13:06] because most of it is covered in concrete and we then decided,

[00:13:08] that we would actually make a very small cut, so to speak, in the area,

[00:13:12] which we then really excavate, in the south on this last remaining green strip,

[00:13:17] that we're going to open up at the gardening office and have scheduled a 2- to 3-week excavation for it.

[00:13:23] Really, but also with the aim of not doing anything in the end, depending on what comes out,

[00:13:28] to dig up everything completely, but simply to get a first look at the ground.

[00:13:31] Of course, we also clarified this in advance with the Federal Monuments Office,

[00:13:34] who are also responsible for this as an authority.

[00:13:37] And everyone involved actually agreed to that, so to speak,

[00:13:40] that this is basically a kind of first attempt,

[00:13:43] simply to be able to weigh up how much substance is really still there.

[00:13:48] Tobias; So what was the first onedruck [laughs] so to speak?

[00:13:51] Barbara: At the beginning, we actually had to realize that the area had been over-imprinted,

[00:13:55] namely also in the sense of the overlapping of the leveling layers,

[00:13:58] is much more massive than we had hoped.

[00:14:01] In the end, we really had to go down to 1.70 m

[00:14:04] to actually get down to the National Socialist, the Nazi layers.

[00:14:09] In other words, we can also see that the building yard area here was not only demolished,

[00:14:13] but also massive restructuring and leveling since the 1960s,

[00:14:17] but probably even later, in the 70s and 80s,

[00:14:20] we can see that in the material found in the leveling layers.

[00:14:23] And we then reached this depth partly by manual excavation,

[00:14:27] but also partly by using a mini excavator,

[00:14:30] and then actually reached a depth of 1.70 meters,

[00:14:33] then really hit the last remains of this accommodation barrack 1.

[00:14:37] Tobias: Because you already mentioned the finds briefly, what were there?

[00:14:42] or maybe just as an example, all the additional material,

[00:14:48] in addition to the remains of the foundations or the remains that came to light?

[00:14:53] Barbara: The majority of the finds, I have to be honest,

[00:14:56] is basically garbage from the time since the building yard was built,

[00:14:59] that it's what we find in the leveling layers.

[00:15:02] But we have the last few centimeters, so to speak,

[00:15:05] before these barrack remains in the form of pile foundations,

[00:15:08] concrete foundations came out, relatively very little,

[00:15:12] but finds were made, but probably from the time of the emergency housing estate,

[00:15:16] which existed in these barracks until the 1960s.

[00:15:21] And it's partly about everyday crockery and flower pots, but above all about

[00:15:26] simple packaging material that really dates back to the 50s and 60s.

[00:15:30] That was actually more from the everyday life of the people who lived there in the post-war period

[00:15:35] who moved there because of the housing shortage and then lived there until the 60s

[00:15:41] lived there.

[00:15:42] From the time of the camp itself, we actually have almost only the few findings of the

[00:15:48] building structures that have been preserved, which is hardly surprising when you look at

[00:15:52] when you consider that the AEL [labor education camp] itself basically only existed for a few years, so actually

[00:15:57] only a good four years and then really several years, so almost 20 years through

[00:16:04] this use as an emergency housing estate actually gave it a completely different function, it was

[00:16:08] originally this detention context.

[00:16:10] Tobias: And especially the barracks, they weren't built to a high standard.

[00:16:15] Barbara: Yes, so what was built down there, we actually know that from the construction documents

[00:16:20] in advance, they were so-called RAD barracks, that is, barracks that were originally built for the

[00:16:24] Reich Labor Service, but which were then actually converted into barracks during the Nazi era

[00:16:29] were used on a large scale, especially in the regime's various forced labor camps

[00:16:34] in concentration camps, in forced labor camps, but also in labor education camps

[00:16:39] in the Reichenau.

[00:16:40] These are basically makeshift buildings, which are mainly made of wood and then, however

[00:16:46] so depending on how long you actually want to use these barracks then a different

[00:16:50] substructure can have.

[00:16:51] So it can be concreted, it can be laid with strip foundations or like us

[00:16:56] the Reichenau could prove archaeologically, through actually a

[00:17:00] very simple pile foundation.

[00:17:02] And I think the essential thing dran is that you simply have to realize that the

[00:17:07] is of course not the most productive excavation from an archaeological point of view that we have

[00:17:11] at the sites of Nazi crimes, precisely because of the degree of overbuilding.

[00:17:17] But I think we're also learning a lot about the subsequent use of these areas

[00:17:20] and how quickly such crime sites can be erased from public memory by

[00:17:24] reuse, but then also through such radical demolition, as happened in the 60s

[00:17:28] could also disappear.

[00:17:30] [Drehgeräusch] Tobias: Let's perhaps move away from the Reichenau labor education camp for a moment.

[00:17:39] You've already spoken, it would be nice if there were more excavations, more archaeological ones too

[00:17:48] Excavations on buildings from the Nazi era or camps from the Nazi era, where would it be from your

[00:17:54] point of view or would there be other meaningful places where it would also, as I said, be

[00:18:00] would be good to excavate archaeologically or at least to carry out surveys, geophysical

[00:18:10] inspections, can you think of anything off the top of your head?

[00:18:14] Barbara: Yes, so if we look specifically at Tyrol, of course, we now have a

[00:18:17] quite a good overview of where there were at least storage locations, because in the last few years they have also been

[00:18:21] the Federal Office for the Protection of Monuments has carried out extensive surveys of sites and

[00:18:27] not only from this survey, but partly because the foundations of the barracks are still

[00:18:30] are still visible above ground, we know of many camp sites where we have not yet found such massive

[00:18:34] overbuilding.

[00:18:35] That's the case in Haiming, for example, or in areas near Schwaz and Kematen,

[00:18:40] where forced labor camps were built, especially for the war industry.

[00:18:44] But I'm also thinking of Vorarlberg, for example, along the Illwerke route in Montafon,

[00:18:48] that was a few years ago, which means we also surveyed [investigated] areas where we simply

[00:18:52] where there was actually no subsequent development and where some of the

[00:18:56] structure is still superficially recognizable, precisely because of the foundations that have been laid through the

[00:19:00] turf or through the forest floor.

[00:19:03] And of course these are all areas where we could potentially achieve better archaeological

[00:19:08] preservation, simply because the overprinting is not so high.

[00:19:11] But I actually think that we shouldn't restrict it just because of this overdevelopment

[00:19:15] should.

[00:19:16] I think archaeology always has two functions.

[00:19:18] One is really from a scientific perspective, that of course we try to

[00:19:22] want to find out as much as possible about a historical site and what happened there.

[00:19:26] So, of course, extensive preservation is always an advantage.

[00:19:29] But archaeology is actually, I would say, more of an intervention mode

[00:19:34] or a way of simply re-engaging with the past and its history again and again

[00:19:38] its significance for the present.

[00:19:40] And accordingly, I believe that with the many camps that have existed throughout Austria

[00:19:44] that have existed throughout Austria during this time, there is always the possibility of using archaeology as a kind of

[00:19:49] as a practice, so to speak, in order to engage with different interest groups on site

[00:19:55] to deal with these places in a new way.

[00:19:57] What then comes out, in the end, some things we can estimate quite well in advance, some things

[00:20:00] perhaps less so, and of course it needs to be scientifically processed afterwards.

[00:20:04] But I think archaeology is always a good way of interacting,

[00:20:09] to simply contribute to a visualization of these situations in the past

[00:20:13] and thus also motivate and promote a new confrontation.

[00:20:17] And we actually see that in a lot of projects.

[00:20:19] That is actually, I would like to say, the origin of archaeology, of the recent

[00:20:25] past, which actually began in the 1980s, for example in Germany

[00:20:28] started in Germany, for example, which was often really "grassroots initiatives", we would say today.

[00:20:34] So people from the local environment actually started to search for clues

[00:20:38] to confront themselves directly with the history of National Socialism on the ground.

[00:20:42] [Drehgeräusch] Tobias: Your results, now I'll jump back to the Reichenau labor camp, the results

[00:20:53] of the excavation work, your findings, will they or are they also available to the general public?

[00:21:02] public, are there, have they been published, except of course,

[00:21:08] I know there are newspaper articles, I think in the regional papers, but also in

[00:21:13] the TT, probably still available online anyway, but is there also a, I'll say now,

[00:21:17] more comprehensive report that will appear?

[00:21:20] Barbara: That's in the making right now, so to speak, also or almost in the Druck, it will on the one hand

[00:21:25] of course there will be publications where we will also present the results in depth

[00:21:30] to a scientific audience on the one hand, but also to a broader public.

[00:21:34] Here in Innsbruck, for example, we have also worked together with AFIN, the

[00:21:40] archaeological research network Innsbruck, we also take part there, which is more of a broad

[00:21:44] effective newsletter, they have also published shorter reports there.

[00:21:48] But I think that, especially when the new concept for the memorial site is actually implemented

[00:21:54] that will also include didactic materials for programs for schoolgirls, so to speak

[00:21:59] and schoolchildren or other interested population groups, so that we can of course

[00:22:04] also like to incorporate the results of archaeological research and, of course

[00:22:09] also make it available.

[00:22:11] And I believe that aerial photo analysis in particular plays a very important role here

[00:22:15] part, because it simply gives you the opportunity to see these spatial dimensions again,

[00:22:19] which are really difficult to comprehend today because of the degree of overbuilding

[00:22:24] to visualize them better and to give people a really spatial

[00:22:29] access to these places and these storage areas.

[00:22:33] Tobias: Is there anything else we should mention about your work in the Reichenau labor education camp?

[00:22:41] that we have forgotten in our conversation?

[00:22:44] Barbara: Well, I think that you can perhaps break it down a bit if you look at

[00:22:48] these different steps of archaeological research, is that we have to deal with different things,

[00:22:53] which methods we use or whether we look at it from a bird's eye view, so to speak

[00:22:57] or whether we really go into the ground, we simply have very different standards in the

[00:23:01] basically, looking at it and of course getting different information out of it.

[00:23:05] Which is a really exciting aspect for me and that's not specifically for

[00:23:10] surprising for Reichenau, but that's what we see in many other projects as well

[00:23:13] is, of course, that through this view from or from this aerial view

[00:23:18] actually quite a lot about the spatial development and the planning system during

[00:23:23] the Nazi era.

[00:23:25] On the one hand, there is, so to speak, what you intend, what you plan, what you estimate

[00:23:28] and what you actually implement.

[00:23:30] And that's something that we can actually break down quite well using various aerial images

[00:23:34] can do.

[00:23:35] On the one hand, how these areas are actually spatially structured and divided up.

[00:23:39] What was really exciting to see, for example, is that we, so

[00:23:44] we have the labor education camp in Reichenau on the one hand and north of it

[00:23:47] towards the Inn there was actually a, I always say it's a multifunctional complex,

[00:23:53] so a camp that was run by the city of Innsbruck, by the Reichspost

[00:23:56] and the Reichsbahn, where forced laborers and prisoners of war were imprisoned

[00:24:00] were then also exploited in Innsbruck.

[00:24:02] And we can actually understand quite well from the aerial photographs how these on the one hand

[00:24:07] administrative structure, but also these different groups

[00:24:11] of detainees are reflected in the spatial planning.

[00:24:14] In that there were always additional buildings, but also always

[00:24:18] the fence demarcations within the camp to separate these groups and areas actually

[00:24:22] reflected.

[00:24:23] And that is also a very important aspect in order to understand how to actually

[00:24:29] this discrimination against different groups, but also administrative management then

[00:24:33] in reality.

[00:24:34] And that works very strongly, for example, through the structuring of space.

[00:24:38] Excitingly, we see this dynamic that we actually have in this northern camp

[00:24:42] are not in the labor education camp.

[00:24:44] There we can actually say that pretty much from the beginning the entire complex was built as a building stock

[00:24:49] was built, actually, at least as it was originally planned and

[00:24:54] then relatively little actually changed in terms of the internal structure.

[00:24:57] And of course that also speaks for a certain continuity of the purpose of this

[00:25:01] camp, that it was really administered by the Gestapo, a high degree of discipline from the beginning

[00:25:07] from the beginning.

[00:25:08] And on the other hand, we can also see in the interface with other historical

[00:25:13] sources such as oral tradition through the aerial photographs,

[00:25:17] certain events that, for example, survivors report more concretely.

[00:25:22] Tobias: Because you just mentioned it, the thing I completely forgot,

[00:25:26] Of course there are oral sources, oral traditions, contemporary witnesses,

[00:25:32] etc.

[00:25:33] How, because there's always the saying that the contemporary witness is the historian's greatest enemy,

[00:25:40] Of course, that's also an exaggeration.

[00:25:44] But how do you take that to heart?

[00:25:49] Do you take it to heart?

[00:25:51] But of course you have to examine it critically?

[00:25:53] Barbara: Well, I don't think you can give a general answer as to what's really important here,

[00:25:57] that we first of all simply approach these different strands of tradition as sources

[00:26:01] which all have their justification, which all need their criticism, of course.

[00:26:05] And that we then, depending on what we're researching, really try to find out,

[00:26:09] compare these different strands of tradition with each other and find out,

[00:26:12] where they confirm each other.

[00:26:13] Where are perhaps blind spots in one tradition that we can feel through the other

[00:26:17] and where do they contradict each other.

[00:26:19] I would argue that this is not only challenging with testimonies,

[00:26:23] because, of course, testimonies, I think, have long been so important in historiography

[00:26:27] a bit disreputable because people say, yes, this is memory and this is of course

[00:26:30] overprinted.

[00:26:31] That's true, of course.

[00:26:32] On the other hand, of course, it's a very central source, because it's basically

[00:26:35] experience values and how they are processed.

[00:26:38] But of course you shouldn't confuse that with a documentary or a factual report.

[00:26:43] But that doesn't mean that contemporary witness reports don't contain information

[00:26:47] that simply reflect a historical reality.

[00:26:50] I think you just have to take that into account in the reappraisal and for that

[00:26:55] it is, of course, also necessary from an archaeological point of view that we work closely

[00:26:58] work closely with historians who can also help us to apply the necessary criticism

[00:27:02] to apply the necessary criticism.

[00:27:03] That worked really fantastically in the project.

[00:27:06] But it was similar with the written sources.

[00:27:09] I know there's always such a tendency to assume that as soon as we have administrative

[00:27:13] written material, to use that as a fact check.

[00:27:16] And that mag can sometimes be justified, but again, we always have to keep that in mind,

[00:27:21] Written material is also something that is created, produced by certain groups in the population,

[00:27:26] with intentions.

[00:27:28] Some things are well documented, some are omitted, some are perhaps even

[00:27:31] even falsified.

[00:27:32] So here, too, source criticism is important.

[00:27:33] And what we see very often in archaeology, especially with camp buildings, is that it,

[00:27:38] there is a planning phase and what you imagine, so to speak, and then there is

[00:27:41] a dynamic in the realization, which also changes in part with the war,

[00:27:46] where we see that in the buildings and also in the use that we can make of them through the

[00:27:49] archaeology, there are changes that we cannot find in the written sources

[00:27:53] not found in the written sources.

[00:27:54] There's also an example from the labor education camp.

[00:27:56] A very important element, actually, which apparently played a major role in the planning for a long time

[00:28:00] role in the planning of the AEL was that it was planned to build a prisoner barrack somewhere for political prisoners

[00:28:06] prisoners, which was not originally intended as a detention group for the

[00:28:09] focus.

[00:28:10] There are planning documents for this, which are also very advanced, including an extensive

[00:28:14] correspondence to the point that you can even see where it should be set up and we can

[00:28:19] actually refer to the aerial photographs in this case and say that this is

[00:28:22] has not been implemented.

[00:28:23] Whatever, there may be a paper trail, but it's not yet localized in the

[00:28:27] Archives.

[00:28:28] We can definitely tell what's really becoming actual inventory, so to speak.

[00:28:31] These are small things now, where it's really only about historically small specifics

[00:28:35] but of course that can also grow.

[00:28:38] We have examples from archaeological research in Germany, for example, from forced labor camps,

[00:28:42] In Brandenburg, for example, there are a lot of projects where we are using archaeology, for example

[00:28:47] really deep insight into the living conditions of different groups of prisoners,

[00:28:51] which we don't find at all in the paper trail.

[00:28:53] Kleinmachnow is such an example, that was also a camp where on the one hand really

[00:28:58] employees of the companies working there were housed, but also forced laborers, forced civilian laborers,

[00:29:03] prisoners of war and even concentration camp prisoners.

[00:29:06] And we see that apparently the companies that ran these camps were then quite

[00:29:10] systematically, depending on which category of people they imprisoned there,

[00:29:14] saved on building materials or infrastructure.

[00:29:18] So for the free laboring population, so to speak, there are well-heated

[00:29:22] Barracks with washing facilities and sanitary facilities.

[00:29:24] For the civilian forced laborers, this is already downgraded, where there are actually only so

[00:29:29] smaller furnaces and no permanently installed sanitary facilities in the barracks until then actually

[00:29:35] to the barracks for Soviet prisoners of war and concentration camp inmates, which no longer even had a

[00:29:40] heating actually.

[00:29:41] And that's what I mean, with archaeology, we actually see things on a human level

[00:29:46] level quite often

[00:29:47] what does it actually mean to be imprisoned there in certain conditions and to be able to drinnen

[00:29:51] to have to live there?

[00:29:52] On the one hand, it's the ideology, the persecution and the categorization that takes place institutionally

[00:29:57] takes place through violence against people, but then also in the implementation of course

[00:30:01] of the respective life situation.

[00:30:03] And that is the access that we have above all through archaeology, in which we can really

[00:30:06] can look at this material component. [Outro music]

[00:30:08] Tobias: Archivwürdig is a production of the Stadtarchiv Innsbruck and part of Stadtstimmen, the

[00:30:31] audio channel of the city of Innsbruck.

[00:00:00] Tobias: Hello and welcome to the fourth episode of our dritten season of Archivwörtig,

[00:00:07] the podcast of the Innsbruck City Archive. Today we are talking about the culture of remembrance and

[00:00:13] places of remembrance in general. For this I have university help with Ingrid Böhler

[00:00:18] for this. Ingrid Böhler is a senior scientist at the University of Innsbruck and head of the

[00:00:24] of the Institute for Contemporary History there. Together we approach the big topic of

[00:00:30] culture of remembrance and talk about definitions of the term and its connection

[00:00:35] with places of remembrance, how the culture of remembrance has developed in Austria and look with

[00:00:41] the points in time, a local example in Innsbruck.

[00:00:44] [Intro-Musi] Tobias: Dear Ingrid, thank you for finding the time to talk to me today. Our superordinate

[00:01:05] The topic of the drith season is the Reichenau labor education camp and the associated

[00:01:11] Redesign of a contemporary memorial site. With this memorial site, of course, the

[00:01:18] big word remembrance culture and place of remembrance. For this reason

[00:01:24] I invited your expertise to simply talk more generally about the term and perhaps

[00:01:32] let's just start like this and see if you can give us a, let's say, university definition

[00:01:38] in the academic circles of remembrance culture.

[00:01:42] Ingrid: Yes, hello Tobias, thank you for the invitation and for your first question, it's a dangerous one,

[00:01:50] because if you ask about the university definition, there is of course a great risk that

[00:01:55] it gets complicated. And the word "culture of remembrance" has actually become so popular

[00:02:02] in historical studies, but also among everyone who somehow has something to do with institutionalized

[00:02:08] memory that you can already complain that it is inflationary and

[00:02:13] it appears in very different contexts and what exactly does it mean now?

[00:02:18] I'm picking up a bit on this advance or the advancedriof this term in, so to speak

[00:02:28] the everyday language of historical studies can be dated back to the 90s, to

[00:02:37] the beginning of the 90s perhaps, and there are various processes behind it.

[00:02:45] So I would just put it very crisply and simply, we all know,

[00:02:50] when we think about Austria and especially about contemporary history related to Austria, that

[00:02:56] there is a censorship, that is the Waldheim years. Waldheim was elected Federal President in 1986

[00:03:04] and we all know what happened in connection with this election campaign

[00:03:09] issues relevant to the politics of the past and history were on the table. There

[00:03:15] we also learned to recognize that up to that point, there was a chapter that was burdensome

[00:03:20] and burdensome, of our own recent history and tried todrängt,

[00:03:26] to forget it. And as is so often the case in history, as Marx also said, so

[00:03:33] history develops, that is, through thesis and antithesis, the pendulum

[00:03:38] swings once in one direction and then again in the other and so to the

[00:03:42] ForgettingdrÃand forgetting, then today the most intense remembrance and remembering and commemorating.

[00:03:48] And accompanying this, of course, there is also a focus here on different levels and in different ways

[00:03:55] Before and through talking about remembrance and its meaning in contemporary society

[00:04:01] and yes, and that brings us to the culture of remembrance. The culture of remembrance, if you want to

[00:04:07] in a general sense, that means the use of history in the present

[00:04:11] public for a specific purpose. And that purpose is to create collective

[00:04:19] identity with it or to secure it. And that is of course also something

[00:04:24] very contemporary. Tobias: A question about that. Especially in the German-speaking

[00:04:29] area, of course, remembrance culture or is very strongly connected with the Holocaust,

[00:04:35] with the Nazi era, although the term itself does not presuppose that. Is it

[00:04:41] it was only through the Waldheim Affair that the term became so strong in our country?

[00:04:48] emerged, so strongly linked to the Nazi era, or is it difficult

[00:04:53] to grasp at all? Ingrid: To be honest, I'm not sure about that. Of course

[00:04:58] the memory of National Socialism or of the Second World War in general

[00:05:05] received an enormous boost in the 1990s. That had to do with the fact that a generational change

[00:05:13] had already taken place before that. So the generation of veterans, the war veterans

[00:05:21] gradually retired and therefore lost influence, public influence

[00:05:29] lost. That's one storyline that triggered these dynamics. Another one that

[00:05:36] just as important, has to do with the fact that the Cold War came to an end in 1989/91.

[00:05:43] And before that, the Cold War, which ended very soon, an incredibly short time after the Second World War

[00:05:51] World War II and defined a completely new international situation, so to speak, [00:05:58

[00:05:58] led to the fact that, for reasons of expediency, the issue of the Second World War

[00:06:04] was somehow pushed aside. For example, they had to somehow bring the Federal Republic into the

[00:06:09] integrate it into the Western camp. And if you are constantly reminded that you are the Nazi successor country,

[00:06:16] then perhaps it's not necessarily good for the climate within the alliance. Or I mean,

[00:06:24] how are Germany and France supposed to get along with each other again if you're constantly

[00:06:29] reminded of what happened in the decades before, in other words the Franco-German relationship

[00:06:35] is a good example. It's not just about National Socialism and the Second

[00:06:39] World War II, but now we are together in an economic alliance, so the

[00:06:45] beginning European integration, the Marshall Plan, then the beginnings of the European Economic Community

[00:06:55] etc. and on the other side NATO. So in short, there were many good reasons why the

[00:07:01] issue was simply pushed aside. These considerations, which were necessary for decades

[00:07:06] were necessary for decades no longer existed after the end of the Cold War.

[00:07:13] On the one hand, the Iron Curtain fell. Many of those affected by the crimes against humanity of the

[00:07:20] National Socialism lived behind the Iron Curtain or the crimes

[00:07:25] happened there and now these memories were suddenly accessible in a different way

[00:07:31] accessible. So that was another very important reason why you were suddenly confronted with a

[00:07:40] new intensity towards this time and also the significance of what happened during this time,

[00:07:49] that happened before 1945, what it means for the present and what is derived from it,

[00:07:56] in terms of necessary actions. On the one hand, practically speaking, for the former Tatar societies

[00:08:03] the division of Europe and the world during the Cold War meant that, after all, with justified

[00:08:10] claims for compensation were not confronted. That, too, has gone beyond the Iron Curtain

[00:08:15] did not work across the Iron Curtain. And there was a catch-up process and yes, that also affected these

[00:08:23] societies or the governments were forced to deal with it. So it's

[00:08:29] one thing led to another. Tobias: And I think, playing right into that, there was also talk of

[00:08:35] Vranitzky. That was, I have to be careful not to say something wrong. But I think,

[00:08:40] we started in the mid-90s... Ingrid: 1991. Tobias: 1991... Ingrid: Yes, summer 91. Tobias: Where we then also for the first time the guilt or the

[00:08:50] Austria's perpetration of the crimes was declared for the first time. Before that there was always only

[00:08:55] only ever talked about the role of victim. Ingrid: Exactly. So Chancellor Franz Vranitzky apologizes in the context of

[00:09:02] a parliamentary speech, but it was not announced that he would address this topic.

[00:09:08] That was also surprising for the Austrian National Council at the time. But he comes up with

[00:09:13] this topic and formulated something like an admission of guilt. So a responsibility for

[00:09:20] complicity in the major crimes of National Socialism and he also apologizes.

[00:09:24] And that was a historical-political censure for Austria. So a central one

[00:09:32] stage in the official, i.e. also state-sponsored, turning away from the

[00:09:39] the lifelong lie of the Second Republic, namely the victim thesis. That you yourself were the first victim of the

[00:09:45] Nazi aggression and therefore cannot be held responsible for what happened afterwards

[00:09:52] can be held responsible. But this process shows two things very clearly, that this

[00:10:00] historical-political and thus also memory-cultural corrections did not simply fall from the

[00:10:06] fall from the sky, the result of a higher insight or morality or ethos, so to speak,

[00:10:16] but that they are always somehow embedded in political processes. And in this case,

[00:10:21] so in terms of domestic policy, there was a very clear hanger for Vranitzky and that was shortly before a

[00:10:28] saying of Jörg Haider, then party chairman of the FPÖ, who spoke of the proper employment policy

[00:10:42] of the National Socialists. There's no need to go into detail, but that is of course

[00:10:49] was a statement that could not be allowed to stand. And so that was the domestic political

[00:10:58] context. At the same time, in terms of foreign policy, you were under Druck at the time, because you had

[00:11:03] had applied to join Brussels Europe and the EC in 1989, and of course that was about

[00:11:14] also about what kind of adruck you leave behind or make with the negotiating partners

[00:11:20] and, of course, taking a clear position with regard to historical policy.

[00:11:29] That was also part of the entry ticket to Brussels Europe. And so this

[00:11:37] signal Vranitzky also wanted to send. So there was simply an international or

[00:11:44] foreign policy Druck that was at play here as an amplifier. Tobias: That means you could also say that,

[00:11:52] if we want to summarize this again very briefly, that there are internal insights,

[00:11:58] but there is also a very strong Druinfluence on our own culture of remembrance or do you see

[00:12:04] not see it that way? Ingrid: Well, in the case of Austria's handling of National Socialism, it was clearly the case,

[00:12:11] that Austria was able to duck away for so long had to do with Austria's specific situation

[00:12:19] after 1945. Austria was a small country, but it belonged to the Western camp. It

[00:12:28] somehow found it easy to somehow also position itself in the international political arena

[00:12:34] irrelevance to be able to afford these lifelong lies. And then over time, especially through a

[00:12:45] different situation, it was then necessary step by step to come up with something.

[00:12:51] Waldheim was also something or the attitude that Waldheim represented in the election campaign, yes,

[00:12:59] in relation to his own past as a Wehrmacht officer in the Balkans, which was so typical

[00:13:06] for this generation of Austrian participants in the war. Of course, that has something to say about his

[00:13:12] character, yes, this deflecting and mendacious behavior that he simply displayed

[00:13:19] has put on. So this obdurate lack of understanding. Tobias: And the stories with the he was never with the party,

[00:13:27] but his horse was, or these things, where there's this Waldheim horse, which one,

[00:13:32] I think you can still see in the House of History. Ingrid: It's no longer there

[00:13:35] in the House of Austrian History, but has moved to the Vienna Museum, that's another story.

[00:13:40] But yes, of course that has provoked a lot of controversy, yes, but this lack of insight,

[00:13:48] that Kurt Waldheim displayed and, after all, he was also a former

[00:13:55] UN Secretary General, who simply made sure that this was observed internationally

[00:14:00] was observed internationally and commented on internationally and then Waldheim also comes one year

[00:14:05] later, after he is elected, on the watch list, so he can no longer travel to the US.

[00:14:10] All this has simply forced the official Austria and the political parties in Austria

[00:14:17] forced them to take a stand. Of course, as I said, this generational change that

[00:14:24] was already noticeable in the 80s and the public too

[00:14:29] in Austria has become more critical. But, as I said, the older Druck always plays a role

[00:14:35] plays a role and what happens afterwards, for example that it then comes to the appointment

[00:14:42] a historical commission around the 00s, for example, where too little has been

[00:14:48] researched chapters of Austria's involvement in National Socialism, so with really

[00:14:56] a lot of money and a very large team. That, too, has to do with this

[00:15:06] consequence of the changed circumstances and the need to work with, for example

[00:15:15] these restitution claims that suddenly came up.

[00:15:20] So maybe we can all remember, maybe you can't, but I can still remember. So

[00:15:25] Suddenly Klimt or Schiele paintings that were lent abroad for exhibition,

[00:15:32] were no longer returned because it suddenly became clear that they were aryanized art

[00:15:42] art objects were involved. So various things were at play here and the result

[00:15:49] was a corresponding dynamic. Tobias: I can also imagine, because I just realized that during

[00:15:55] your explanations, it was also pretty much at the time when there was an exhibition

[00:16:01] about the members of the Wehrmacht, where a documentary film was then made

[00:16:08] was made of the, unfortunately I can't remember the name, where then really

[00:16:15] the exhibition was on its way and people went in and looked at the exhibition

[00:16:18] and then discussed it, some of them were still relatives, where it was then

[00:16:24] was about the clean image of the Wehrmacht, what they did under the pretext of

[00:16:30] were normal soldiers, were not involved in war crimes and so on, where there was a long

[00:16:35] time also with the white vest of the Wehrmacht and so on, which is completely absurd and

[00:16:41] then there are really sometimes heated discussions between former members of the

[00:16:46] Wehrmacht at these exhibitions. I think this documentation,

[00:16:51] because this one, what's it called, is definitely, I think, also on YouTube

[00:16:57] is also quite interesting to look up. Ingrid: The Wehrmacht exhibition, which was organized by Germany

[00:17:04] then also came to Austria, was certainly also an important step in the culture of remembrance

[00:17:13] step, a stage in terms of correcting our view of National Socialism and the Nazis

[00:17:23] Second World War. And the Wehrmacht exhibition,

[00:17:28] really made waves and once again it became clearer than ever that

[00:17:38] there is such a thing as collective memories and they are not always compatible with each other. So

[00:17:46] this generation of war veterans has created its own narrative. Like

[00:17:53] do we remember National Socialism? Yes, preferably in the form that we did in Russia

[00:18:00] defended the fatherland. So how is that supposed to work in a war of aggression against the Soviet Union?

[00:18:08] so far away from Austria, yes, that's not entirely logical and not entirely rational, but it worked

[00:18:16] worked. And part of this narrative was, of course, that you yourself also somehow

[00:18:24] suffered somehow. So you had to endure the hardships of war... Tobias: You also had to cope yourself, didn't you? Ingrid: Exactly,

[00:18:33] endure the many war invalids, the traumatized, the family, the people at home,

[00:18:40] yes, who suffered from the stress of the war. That was sort of the dominant

[00:18:46] narrative. And a later generation, who then also went to this Wehrmacht exhibition,

[00:18:55] no longer found it so convincing. And they were able to deal with what was shown there,

[00:19:00] that the Wehrmacht was indeed involved in war crimes. And where they

[00:19:05] perhaps didn't help directly, but in any case witnessed, yes, they could do with what

[00:19:11] do with it. She got involved. And when they were in the exhibition together,

[00:19:17] then that sometimes led to such heated discussions. But I mean, especially Waldheim,

[00:19:25] the Wehrmacht officer Waldheim, the war participant Waldheim and how he himself

[00:19:33] or the Wehrmacht exhibition and the controversies that happened there

[00:19:41] are quite typical of the fact that there is actually something like a generational memory

[00:19:46] and that there is not always compatibility between the generations. So,

[00:19:54] that can also happen with other topics that are perhaps less stressful now and less

[00:20:02] associated with necessary self-criticism. Tobias: Because you mentioned the generational change,

[00:20:11] is it also helpful from your point of view that, in the case of the NS period, a great many

[00:20:17] documents, records and even photographs are still available, which can be used in that sense

[00:20:23] sense, be it the critical examination, is that helpful or is it not absolutely

[00:20:32] necessary in order to then approach the topic of the culture of remembrance and perhaps also

[00:20:37] criticize or question earlier collective memory? Ingrid: What you're talking about,

[00:20:45] is of course also something that has to do with historical research. When new sources emerge,

[00:20:52] new evidence, so to speak, of Nazi crimes or of the involvement of certain groups of individual

[00:21:04] personalities etc., yes, that just leads to a necessary revision and what

[00:21:11] really surprising, even though we've been dealing with contemporary history for many decades now

[00:21:18] reappraisal of the Nazi era, something new keeps popping up, yes, and we then have to

[00:21:26] learn ourselves again and again, okay, there was a blind spot, on the one hand because we still have the material

[00:21:33] and on the other hand, because of course the present is also changing somehow and

[00:21:38] for a long time, certain groups of victims who were persecuted under National Socialism,

[00:21:47] simply received too little public recognition. This includes the group of Wehrmacht desserts,

[00:21:52] if we're back on the subject of the Veteran's Society of the Second Republic, the Wehrmacht desserts

[00:22:00] were for this narrative, we heroically defended the fatherland, of course very disturbing and

[00:22:08] That's why they weren't given the necessary recognition for the longest time. it was only in 2009,

[00:22:15] that this group was rehabilitated, other victim groups, homosexuals for example,

[00:22:22] were also ignored for a long time because they also lived through the longest period in the Second Republic

[00:22:27] were also criminalized, there are continuities between the time before National Socialism,

[00:22:34] for the Nazi era and afterwards, yes, and these blind spots, they crop up from time to time,

[00:22:41] because our present is also changing and these questions are then asked in the present

[00:22:46] and then there's also material, ideally or often, when you have a question,

[00:22:51] then you can also find the source material. That's how images of history change and that's also how they change

[00:23:02] the culture of remembrance. Tobias: The culture of remembrance is also very strongly linked to places of remembrance.

[00:23:08] Do you see places of remembrance as part of the culture of remembrance or should they be separated from each other...

[00:23:17] So, what do you mean by separate from each other? It's difficult, of course. But are they still there specifically?

[00:23:22] how they are to be interpreted or would you say that they are always linked to the culture of remembrance?

[00:23:28] Let's maybe take an example, I don't know.

[00:23:31] Ingrid: The Bergisel. Tobias: The Bergisel, for example [both laugh]. Of course, it's clearly connected to 1809. If it stands alone, maybe it's not,

[00:23:45] Is it already? It's difficult, I think.

[00:23:48] Ingrid: In any case, there is a conceptual proximity between the word "culture of remembrance" and the term "place of remembrance".

[00:23:57] Looking at it again from an academic perspective. Now I'll repeat myself again.

[00:24:07] By culture of remembrance we mean all activities and phenomena that somehow take place in the public sphere

[00:24:18] and the public can also be a partial public. But in any case, they relate to history for the purpose

[00:24:25] the creation of a collective identity. So it's always a kind of social self-insurance.

[00:24:33] So the self-insurance of a group, that's us. That's where we come from.

[00:24:39] But the message can also be, that's not us, yes. Tobias: Yes [both laugh]. Ingrid: But in any case, it's a necessary understanding of that,

[00:24:49] what you refer to as a collective and thus also guarantee your own cohesion.

[00:24:59] And groups want to be long-lasting, they want to endure. So there's a connection between your own past,

[00:25:08] their own present and their own future. And that's why you have to try to consolidate these memories

[00:25:16] and somehow organize it, institutionalize it. We set up memorials for this. We invent rituals for that.

[00:25:26] That's what the Bergisel stands for [both laugh]. And the Bergisel offers many points of connection.

[00:25:35] How one remembers the figure of Andreas Hofer in 1809. Much of this is, of course, highly contrived.

[00:25:45] A certain image is created. And with this image you create your own idea of Tyrolean history

[00:25:53] and therefore also of what the Tyroleans are like. And that brings us to a place of remembrance.

[00:26:05] A place of memory as a concept in what is called memory studies in history or cultural studies,

[00:26:16] is a concept that goes back to Pierre Nora. Pierre Nora was a French historian.

[00:26:22] And he invented this concept of the "lieu de mémoire" [French for: place of memory] and by that he meant central points of reference in French national history,

[00:26:38] that endow the collective of the French nation with an identity.

[00:26:45] In part, he imagined this in very concrete spatial terms, applied to Tyrol, the Bergisel, which is actually a place.

[00:26:56] But he was more open about it. They are crystallization points, they are central points of reference.

[00:27:06] And in the case of France, that can also be the Marseillaise, for example, the French national anthem.

[00:27:13] Or a ritual, a specific custom can also be something like a place of remembrance.

[00:27:21] So that's somehow more diverse to think of.

[00:27:26] A certain song can be a place of remembrance.

[00:27:30] A certain image that everyone knows, that has to do with history.

[00:27:35] Now I'm back to Austria. I'm jumping a bit associatively.

[00:27:38] Tobias: If I may jump in there, especially in Innsbruck it would of course be the picture of the Virgin Mary, which is depicted on all house walls, or on very many house walls, for example.

[00:27:48] Ingrid: That's not necessarily something historical.

[00:27:50] Tobias: That's not something historical.

[00:27:52] Ingrid: That's an interesting question. You could think about that in more detail.

[00:27:58] But the giant circular monument at Bergisel is of course a place of remembrance.

[00:28:05] That's exactly what Pierre Nora had in mind, or another image central to the Austrian identity of the Second Republic would of course be the photo of the signing of the State Treaty at the Belvedere.

[00:28:24] But places of remembrance, as Pierre Nora meant them, naturally have the aim of consolidating one's own identity.

[00:28:34] In this context, of course, events with such a positive connotation are more likely to die, even if they partly see the Bergisel battle, i.e. the fight.

[00:28:44] That's not something that's only positive per se, but you can still turn it into a positive story.

[00:28:51] And that's exactly what happened with Andreas Hofer, 1809 and all these things.

[00:28:56] We remember it as a glorious victory, but those who take a closer look at this era put it into perspective,

[00:29:05] just as people have now learned to view the personality and work of Andreas Hofer a little more critically.

[00:29:12] But the Bergisel is a wonderful example for Tyrol of how the use of history is put to use to create identity.

[00:29:27] Political rituals continue to take place at Bergisel, commemorations for Andreas Hofer.

[00:29:34] Yes, they take place there. That's where the provincial governors from both sides of the Brenner gather.

[00:29:42] And they remember it as something that is constitutive for the lasting common connection between the two parts of the country.

[00:29:59] And that also has something very contemporary as its goal. The aim is to create a common identity.

[00:30:08] [Drehgeräusch] Tobias: Let's perhaps take the leap away from Andreas Hofer and perhaps also your opinion or how you feel about the solution.

[00:30:23] As I said, at the time of our recording, the project for the new Reichenau labor education camp memorial site has not yet been completed.

[00:30:31] But what has been completed, and we both attended the opening, is the timing, i.e. the Innsbruck alternative to the stumbling stones.

[00:30:39] How do you see the implementation of such, in this case, very small places of remembrance that catch your eye when you walk through the city?

[00:30:52] Are you personally satisfied or enthusiastic about this solution, what has been done in Innsbruck?

[00:31:02] Or what is your opinion at this point? It might also be interesting to see.

[00:31:07] Ingrid: Now I'll ask you again about the place of remembrance. The way you've formulated your question, you can show very nicely,

[00:31:16] that place of remembrance has now also become a term that is used in different contexts.

[00:31:24] So, on the one hand, it still stands for Pierre Nora's concept, and place of remembrance is something,

[00:31:33] that has the quality for a group to pass on the shared identity derived from the past to subsequent generations.

[00:31:50] At the times we're talking about here, they're something completely new, we don't yet know whether they can develop this quality,

[00:32:00] whether they can create a sustainable identity for a group in the long term.

[00:32:10] That doesn't have to be for the whole of Innsbruck, but it does have to be for a significant part of it, which is then somehow reflected politically in the local council, etc., etc.

[00:32:21] Tobias: Or in the population. Ingrid: Where there are also groups in the population who say, yes, someone lived in our street who was a victim of National Socialism, a victim of Nazi persecution policies

[00:32:37] and we would like to remember this person or revive their memory.

[00:32:43] And this person is part of our former neighborhood, yes, so we're back with this group.

[00:32:52] And we as the current neighborhood have an interest in not forgetting those who lived here back then.

[00:32:59] If that works, then the points in time will also become places of remembrance in the sense of Pierre Nora, yes.

[00:33:07] I think the nice thing about the points in time is that they have the quality of emerging from civil society.

[00:33:20] So groups from the population can get in touch with you at the city archive and apply.

[00:33:28] A date is to be set here and we as a group will then somehow take care of this date.

[00:33:43] And these are small interventions. They are very individual.

[00:33:49] They relate to one person or perhaps a family.

[00:33:54] They don't take up much space. They are primarily visible to those who live in the vicinity of that moment.

[00:34:05] But of course they're always there somehow in everyday life. You just have to see them.

[00:34:12] So these small, decentralized forms of remembrance are, I believe, a very important and also worthy addition to a cautionary remembrance and commemoration of the National Socialist era.

[00:34:33] [Outro music]

[00:34:48] Tobias: Archivwürrdig is a production of the Stadtarchiv Innsbruck and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck.

[00:00:00] Tobias: Hello and welcome to the fifth episode of our dritten season of Archivwörtig,

[00:00:05] the podcast of the Innsbruck City Archive. For today's episode we go to the

[00:00:11] neighboring Free State of Bavaria, more precisely to Dachau. At the Dachau concentration camp memorial site

[00:00:19] I met with the director Gabriele Hammermann for a chat. At the beginning we talk

[00:00:25] about her connections to Innsbruck and the decision to build a new

[00:00:30] memorial site in the Reichenau. We then look at various aspects of the concentration camp memorial site

[00:00:36] Dachau and try to identify parallels to the Reichenau labor education camp.

[00:00:42] [Intor-Musik] Tobias: Dear Gabriele, thank you for the invitation, first of all to the Dachau concentration camp memorial.

[00:01:04] It's also my first visit today. We are recording here and at your place, as you have a connection to the Reichenau labor education camp

[00:01:17] or you are a member of the expert commission. Perhaps it would also be nice if you could tell us

[00:01:26] perhaps briefly explain how this participation in the Historical Commission came about,

[00:01:31] expert commission came about. Gabriele: Yes, I received the invitation from Lukas Morscher,

[00:01:41] the head of the city archives and Irene Heisz and I was very, very pleased because there were just so many

[00:01:49] affected many areas that are now relevant in the former Reichenau labor education camp

[00:01:57] which play a central role for us here at the memorial and which are also relevant in my

[00:02:04] research on forced labor, but also on the concentration camp system.

[00:02:12] And I was very pleased with the many points of contact and also really appreciated the great and

[00:02:22] collegial cooperation in this commission. I think that has also led to the fact that we

[00:02:29] really got to the goal in a very short time and in big steps, so to speak.

[00:02:37] I often find that these discussion processes take considerably longer.

[00:02:47] And in that respect, that's my connection to Innsbruck, a city that I also really love

[00:02:55] beautiful. Tobias: I was just about to say that there have already been visits to Innsbruck, of course

[00:03:00] and vice versa, there was also an excursion by the commission to Dachau,

[00:03:05] if I'm informed correctly. Gabriele: Yes, a few weeks ago they were all here and looked at the

[00:03:12] concentration camp memorial site, but also the outdoor sites here near the memorial site,

[00:03:19] For example, there was a former firing range where over 4,000 Soviet soldiers were buried

[00:03:28] prisoners of war were executed, which we converted into a memorial site in 2014

[00:03:36] with an outdoor exhibition and a place of names. And that was because it was the theme

[00:03:42] outdoor exhibition was also relevant for many of the delegation.

[00:03:48] Tobias: May I perhaps also ask for your thoughts on the or your attitude or opinion on the

[00:03:56] plan for a new memorial site or a contemporary place of remembrance

[00:04:03] at the site of the former labor education camp?

[00:04:08] Gabriele: Yes, I believe that this camp and the aftermath of the camp for the city

[00:04:14] Innsbruck are really of great importance. That essentially goes from 1941 to 1945

[00:04:24] about the history of the Reichenau labor education camp. We really have a lot of

[00:04:30] exciting political discussions, including discussions about the extent to which, for example

[00:04:37] companies came to terms with National Socialism or the forced laborers

[00:04:48] exploited for their production. This is a very, very central issue because the labor education camp

[00:04:56] Reichenau was run by the Gestapo and the companies had a kind of right of suggestion

[00:05:03] and I find that very, very central, how many companies were ultimately involved in this system

[00:05:11] were involved. And there were also uses as prisoner-of-war camps and as Reichspost camps

[00:05:19] and the railroad. And here, too, we're not just at the site in Reichenau, but in the surrounding area

[00:05:27] of the city of Innsbruck with at least 40 branch camps and that shows how close, so to speak, forced labor

[00:05:37] was interwoven with National Socialism, but also with German society, especially during the war

[00:05:44] was. Tobias: The former Dachau concentration camp and the Reichenau labor education camp

[00:05:49] cannot be compared one to one. But I would say that there are parallels that apply to both

[00:05:55] camps, of course not in terms of size and so on, and also in terms of use. So there are

[00:06:01] a lot of differences, of course, but also because I was informed in advance,

[00:06:07] also in terms of the direct subsequent use of the warehouse. Because we have

[00:06:12] in Reichenau or the former camps in Reichenau directly after the war

[00:06:20] a reception camp for DPs, i.e. "displaced persons" [person not living in this place], then of course also for the

[00:06:27] Nazi functionaries, i.e. as a camp, a prison camp so to speak, whereby then the further

[00:06:34] subsequent use in Innsbruck lasted much longer than now in Dachau, you can perhaps

[00:06:40] say something about how you see the comparison or parallels with the Reichenau camp

[00:06:47] and the Dachau camp. Gabriele: The thing is, if we go back to the history between 1941 and 1945

[00:06:55] that it was also a transit camp, the Reichenau or a transit camp for Jews

[00:07:03] Jews to the Mauthausen concentration camp and also to Auschwitz and that is one aspect,

[00:07:11] that is only mentioned in the history of the Dachau concentration camp at the end and only in the context of the

[00:07:18] outer camps. There were also, there were large transports from the satellite camps, above all

[00:07:26] things to the so-called bunker projects, which are projects that have been planned

[00:07:36] to relocate the production of airplanes underground. There were areas in Dachau drei,

[00:07:45] that is the former BMW external warehouse in Allach. There was also a bunker construction project there

[00:07:53] in Mühldorf in the complex and in Kaufering. Mostly Jewish prisoners worked there

[00:08:01] and there were also these transports, especially of sick and emaciated people,

[00:08:07] who could not be squeezed any further in the context of this labor process, who were then just

[00:08:14] also transferred to Auschwitz. Reichenau was also planned in the context of a reception camp for

[00:08:25] Italian workers who had fled. There is also a context, so to speak, with my research.

[00:08:33] I worked on the Italian military internees and, of course, also dealt with the

[00:08:40] topic of forced labor from Italy from 1938, 1939. Exactly, that was also an issue and

[00:08:49] then of course we can now also draw a comparison with the topic of the subsequent use of the

[00:08:57] Dachau concentration camp, which was initially run as a "displayed persons camp" for a few months

[00:09:05] for a few months. From August 1945 until drei years later, for example, as an internment camp for National Socialists

[00:09:15] and then as a refugee camp, primarily for Germans who had fled from the former

[00:09:24] East Germany, who then came here to Dachau and had no, no living space and

[00:09:34] also lived in precarious conditions. Also on the outskirts of the city, similar to Reichenau

[00:09:42] and had difficulties establishing themselves in society, partly because there was a large

[00:09:50] rejection of the immigrants, so to speak. Tobias: Then that's what work is for

[00:09:59] Reichenau education camp, that's when everything was flattened, to put it casually,

[00:10:05] everything was demolished. Fortunately, the camp here in Dachau did not suffer the same fate

[00:10:12] did not happen. It was converted into a memorial site relatively early on, you could say

[00:10:21] has been converted. Can we perhaps go into a little more detail about how the memorial came about?

[00:10:27] Gabriele: This process was a long one. in 1955, the former inmates of the concentration camp

[00:10:34] Dachau came together on an international level to form the International Dachau Committee

[00:10:42] and it was decided that this place, which from the point of view of the former prisoners was completely

[00:10:50] has been used inappropriately. We can go into that in a moment, turn this place into a

[00:10:57] memorial site. But this process took a long time, ten years until 1965 in May

[00:11:06] a memorial could be erected and it actually took an international publicity

[00:11:13] and the moral corrective, the moral significance of the former prisoners of the

[00:11:22] Dachau concentration camp, that a memorial site was created here at this location. In the

[00:11:30] immediate post-war period, for example, there was a suggestion from the local Landrat that the former

[00:11:37] crematorium and that was the only memorial site here on the site of the former

[00:11:44] prisoners' camp, that this crematorium should be demolished and only through international

[00:11:53] initiatives this was prevented. So you can see from that that German society has this

[00:12:01] normalize this place, wanted to overwrite it, wanted to repurpose it, so that the memory of what

[00:12:09] what happened here is completely lost. Tobias: Also a process that in Austria

[00:12:14] clearly interwoven, of course with a different premise than this victim thesis, which is always very

[00:12:21] was always held in advance in order to let this dark time rest for the time being and

[00:12:30] then, of course, in Austria it was only much later that it was dealt with, as it was in Germany,

[00:12:34] where, I would say, it started 20 years earlier, the debate.

[00:12:41] I don't know whether you can confirm that or not, it's always very generalized,

[00:12:46] of coursedrückt but... Gabriele: I think quite a lot has also contributed to the fact that there is a

[00:12:52] judicial punishment of the crimes relatively soon after the end of the war, by the Americans on the

[00:12:59] one side, through the Nuremberg Trial, but I referred to the internment camp,

[00:13:05] the drei years after the end of the war and that is in the context of the so-called Dachau trials

[00:13:13] was also established here. The criminals who were here were practically combed through

[00:13:21] and there were major investigations, very numerous investigations and also trials

[00:13:28] against the SS in the Dachau concentration camp, that was the so-called "parent case" and then also

[00:13:37] against the SS in Mauthausen, Flossenbürg in Buchenwald and in Mittelbau-Dora. So you see

[00:13:47] a very, very important aspect of the judicial punishment of the immediate post-war period and as a result

[00:13:56] of course many of the population learned about the crimes that took place here on the ground

[00:14:02] and they could no longer simply say there was nothing, we knew nothing about it,

[00:14:09] because that was actually a very important social event. Tobias: And I have

[00:14:16] so far only, what do you mean only, but I have visited the memorial site in Mauthausen twice,

[00:14:23] once also the Hartheim memorial, Hartheim Castle and also in Mauthausen, it

[00:14:30] is also made very clear during a guided tour, for example in Mauthausen, up there is

[00:14:34] was the football pitch and the SS guards also played a match there

[00:14:39] played a match against the local football club downstairs, so that's where it was, and when you're up there

[00:14:45] and see how close it is, it's actually very frightening that there are really

[00:14:49] many from or so many say, you didn't know, partly yes, but for the most part it can actually be

[00:14:57] not like that. Gabriele: It's unthinkable, because especially towards the end of the war, and we have already in the area of

[00:15:04] of Reichenau, how big this network of persecution was, there were, we have

[00:15:11] just talked about the forced labor camps, about labor education camps that covered the entire area

[00:15:19] existed in Germany or existed in the German Reich, and the local population has

[00:15:26] also noticed, of course, when the marches went through the towns in the concentration camps

[00:15:31] from the train station to the camp, and especially towards the end of the war there were death marches,

[00:15:42] there was practically this system of satellite camps, concentration camps, the Dachau camp

[00:15:48] has 140 satellite camps in the area of Upper Bavaria above all, but also towards Austria and that is

[00:15:57] of course a topic of constant encounters with the crimes. Tobias: The memorial here in Dachau

[00:16:07] has existed for a very long time now, I would say that the dissemination of knowledge has developed over time

[00:16:13] running time has also changed a lot. The main exhibition has been since 2002/2003, I think,

[00:16:23] I think it's been drin since 2003. We see or...

[00:16:27] Perhaps I can ask you in general about knowledge transfer here in Dachau.

[00:16:33] How do you see the development of the mediation concept or the place of mediation here in Dachau?

[00:16:42] Gabriele: In the beginning there were also former prisoners who were also in the former prisoner camp here,

[00:16:50] That's the part of the memorial site where they gave guided tours, tours with their history,

[00:16:57] Often they were political prisoners, often from the communist resistance, so many

[00:17:05] had already been imprisoned in 1933 and spoke about their many years of experience,

[00:17:15] including the persecution of their families and that was a very, very significant and important time,

[00:17:22] The memorial department, the education department, was only established at the turn of the millennium.

[00:17:32] For many years there were practically tours here on site via seconded teachers and there were also

[00:17:43] various very committed history societies were formed in the area, which filled this vacuum, so to speak, of support

[00:17:54] in the concentration camp memorial site. It was the case for a long time that the state, not so much

[00:18:05] took care of this issue, it only increasingly became an issue in the 80s,

[00:18:13] but actually often based on the commitment of civil society. And as I said,

[00:18:20] an education department from the turn of the millennium, we also tried, of course,

[00:18:27] practically integrate this fund, so to speak, of this civil society initiative

[00:18:36] with the tour guides that we have here on the site. There are now 70 of them and there are actually

[00:18:46] a six-month training course that is very popular, so to speak. We're also on it now,

[00:18:53] continuously retraining speakers and it is important to us that these

[00:19:04] tour guides are also part of the memorial, so they have also become permanent employees of the memorial.

[00:19:13] So it's a long process, you can see that, and if you focus on the content again,

[00:19:21] then since the Beutelsbach Consensus in the memorials, it has been customary not to deal with moral

[00:19:32] over-forming, but rather to promote research-based, open learning here in this place..., yes

[00:19:39] to encourage that, that is very, very important. We want to encourage a critical examination of the role

[00:19:50] also of perpetration, so and society and of course a strong biographical work about the

[00:20:00] former prisoners here, so it's practical that more and more new areas are now also being integrated into our work

[00:20:11] resonates, so to speak. However, we realize that the preparation and follow-up takes much more time,

[00:20:22] than in earlier years, when perhaps more attention was paid to this in school lessons,

[00:20:30] but where there wasn't such a large generational gap. So it's actually very necessary,

[00:20:41] reflection and that's why we're currently rebuilding our education center with

[00:20:51] six new seminar rooms, which will be state of the art in terms of technology and will be geared towards this

[00:21:00] we are very much looking forward to this redesign work. There is always the wish that the memorials

[00:21:09] position themselves on the current political situation, also in their educational work and there

[00:21:21] but we think that it's very, very important to talk about the engagement with the place, so to speak

[00:21:28] questions and not to actively initiate this, but to get the students to ask questions

[00:21:36] to come to conclusions that they have drawn from the tour. You could put it like this.

[00:21:43] Of course, it's also important that the diversity of the visitors has changed a lot

[00:21:52] has changed. We are in an immigration society, in a migration society and that needs

[00:21:58] of course, we also need updated educational programs and here, too, the topic of preparation, follow-up

[00:22:07] is very central. And that brings us to the topic of graphic novels, for example. We are currently

[00:22:16] in the process of establishing a graphic novel that is practically about the posting process and

[00:22:25] this short period of time, how people here went from being an individual to a number. And that's what a

[00:22:35] former prisoner Edgar Kupfer-Koberwitz described this in a really incredibly intense way

[00:22:42] and based on his description we created a graphic novel with an office, a film

[00:22:51] which will now be presented soon and where we believe that there simply needs to be another

[00:22:59] a completely different approach. That was the starting point, so we started with the topic of comics

[00:23:07] for example, or graphic novels, through intensive contact with our young

[00:23:15] employees. That is, of course, we have many from the FSJ or in earlier years were

[00:23:23] there were also so-called memorial servants. That was an initiative from Austria. Tobias: I should perhaps briefly say that this is a voluntary

[00:23:30] social year. So in Germany, in Austria, it would be similar to the

[00:23:35] the community service, so to speak, just so that we capture our listeners, so to speak. Gabriele: And we have in the

[00:23:45] contacts with our young employees, we realized what we might be able to develop anew and

[00:23:52] we're very happy about that now. That was an exciting, intensive process and that we can now present it.

[00:24:02] Tobias: Very nice. There is also an archive and a library at the memorial site

[00:24:12] or it's part of the memorial site, an archive and a library. Gabriele: And a large collection. Tobias: And a

[00:24:17] large collection just now. Is that from your point of view, so on the one hand I would like to ask how the

[00:24:23] interaction between the individual, I would now call it departments and whether you see that as a big

[00:24:30] bonus and where there are perhaps difficulties in reconciling the whole thing.

[00:24:36] Gabriele: Well, we sit very closely together here. So the different departments are not in

[00:24:44] different buildings or anything like that, but we've done it deliberately. We're sitting here in the east wing of the

[00:24:51] former commercial building, in the middle of the former site of the former prison camp,

[00:25:00] which is also a special place to work, but only for our listeners: where are we sitting here?

[00:25:13] And as I said, we did that quite deliberately. We have also designed this area

[00:25:20] in consultation with the Office for the Preservation of Historical Monuments, so that the historical structure of this

[00:25:26] building is also preserved and in the course of this we also have the archive, library,

[00:25:32] collection reorganized. That was ten years ago now and we have very, very close contact

[00:25:40] with the survivors and the descendants. That means our collection has grown enormously in the meantime

[00:25:47] grown enormously. There were archaeological excavations in the outdoor camp in Allach that I just mentioned. There are

[00:25:56] thousand objects came to the concentration camp memorial site and a whole new exciting field has opened up.

[00:26:03] We offered an exhibition on this and are now also planning the redesign of the historical

[00:26:12] buildings to the memorial site. One of these is the former transformer house,

[00:26:18] which was responsible for the electricity in the camp, i.e. the camp fence, loudspeakers and so on. Tobias: Headlights.

[00:26:24] Gabriele: A lot of elements of terror. This will be the place where the collection of the memorial site will be housed in the future

[00:26:31] and we are also in the process of redesigning the archive and library

[00:26:40] to significantly expand the area. The collaboration is really exciting because the education department

[00:26:48] is located in the immediate vicinity. The scientific department, that's the second branch, so to speak,

[00:26:56] is also close by, so that exhibitions can be planned in practice, but also

[00:27:04] media apps, for example, which we offer here on the subject of art in the concentration camp. So that

[00:27:12] it's very, very important to have short distances. The difficulties that you mentioned

[00:27:19] I think that there are often difficulties from the outside, because, for example, we consider

[00:27:27] we ask ourselves, what do we do today? You have a plan and the plan can actually be implemented after

[00:27:33] few minutes [smiles] because something happens. For example, which makes us very happy, a lot of

[00:27:41] relatives come to the archive to do research. They are here as part of a visit and

[00:27:51] of course we take the time to do this, because this is also a very central upheaval that we are

[00:27:57] right now and contact with the descendants is also very, very important for us. Tobias: Because they are

[00:28:03] just mentioned contact with the descendants, I think that's also very exciting

[00:28:09] and interesting, is there really something new for you in this research?

[00:28:14] new things come to light, because maybe they are still, be it souvenirs, maybe from

[00:28:22] survivors, this is also a point of contact, where an open

[00:28:30] channel of communication then arises beyond the visit and what is there so a bit

[00:28:38] for examples? Gabriele: We have several event formats. One is called Remembrance and Family Memory

[00:28:45] and it's practically about what the concentration camp imprisonment has done to the

[00:28:53] families has done. Those are always very, very moving conversations. We have a second

[00:29:01] format, which is called a multi-generational conversation. We don't just try to get the children involved,

[00:29:09] but also grandchildren, some great-grandchildren here in Dachau and it's very interesting,

[00:29:16] because the different generations each deal with the topic differently within the family

[00:29:23] deal with the topic. It is often the case that the children often knew nothing about the crime here at

[00:29:31] the place, what happened to their fathers and there was a greater openness on the part of the former prisoners

[00:29:39] to talk to their grandchildren or great-grandchildren, who in turn have completely different processing mechanisms

[00:29:47] have completely different ones. We often actually have to deal with art, with media art, with different aspects of art

[00:29:57] aspects of art that have to do with the detention of the relative. Tobias: Are there also sometimes insights

[00:30:09] also the visitor, if the person or the ancestor died here or because

[00:30:18] he was deported from here, that the visitors then come to this conclusion,

[00:30:23] okay, my relative was detained here and they didn't know exactly beforehand

[00:30:29] known beforehand. It's happened quite often. Gabriele: That's what I just reported, where we

[00:30:36] take our time, of course, because it's a very emotional process. When we are here in the archive

[00:30:43] our database, which contains over 200,000 records of former prisoners, so many were in the period

[00:30:51] between 1933 and 1945 here in Dachau, when we find out that the grandfather, the uncle, the father was here,

[00:30:59] was here in Dachau. There were also several very moving invitations from descendants, who were about

[00:31:11] 4,000 Soviet prisoners of war who were murdered in Hebertshausen near Dachau

[00:31:18] by the Dachau SS. And it really was like that, these descendants of the victims knew nothing

[00:31:28] and there are some kind of internet forums where they searched and never stopped searching.

[00:31:36] And our research, we published it in newspapers, so to speak, but also in these

[00:31:44] forums in the former Soviet Union, and because of that, people got in touch with us, who have

[00:31:52] showed us their photo albums and we have corresponding biographies with the photo albums,

[00:31:59] so we were able to show them the history of the people who had been murdered and these were again, so there were

[00:32:06] really no idea where the people remained, where the Soviet prisoners of war

[00:32:11] remained and to come to the place with the group, I think we were 20 people,

[00:32:19] 20 delegations of 20 descendants, that was one of the most moving experiences I had here in this place. [Outro music]

[00:32:47] Tobias: Archivwürrdig is a production of the Stadtarchiv Innsbruck and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck.

[00:00:00] Tobias: Hello and welcome to the sixth episode of our dritten season of Archivwörtig,

[00:00:05] the podcast of the Innsbruck City Archive.

[00:00:08] In this episode, we look at the role of urban politics with regard to the culture of remembrance.

[00:00:14] I had the pleasure of welcoming the outgoing City Councillor for Culture Uschi Schwarzl and the outgoing Chair of the Culture Committee Irene Heisz.

[00:00:23] We use the example of the points in time to discuss how commemorative projects are implemented

[00:00:28] and also look to the future towards the end.

[00:00:31] [Intro music] Tobias: Firstly, thank you both very much for finding the time to come and join me for the drith season of our podcast Archivwündig.

[00:00:56] We have the Reichenau labor education camp and the new memorial site of the Reichenau labor education camp as a major overarching topic.

[00:01:05] We then circle around or we swing a bit beyond the topic in the relay

[00:01:11] And of course, to take up a topic like this and the culture of remembrance, places of remembrance, you need a political level,

[00:01:19] it needs political will, it needs political support.

[00:01:22] And that's where I have the advantage with you two, that on the one hand I have the city councillor responsible for culture

[00:01:28] and on the other hand Irene, i.e. Uschi as the councillor responsible for culture and Irene as the chair of the culture committee.

[00:01:36] And, as I said, we are talking about the culture of remembrance as a task of urban politics.

[00:01:44] Perhaps the question to both of you first, where do you see the role of politics in relation to the culture of remembrance?

[00:01:53] Where should it have an impact, where must it have an impact, perhaps also where there are limits, where perhaps politics should take a step back?

[00:02:02] Maybe I'll start with you, Uschi, when I look at you.

[00:02:07] Uschi: Yes, first of all, thank you very much for the invitation.

[00:02:10] It's very exciting for both of us, I think.

[00:02:13] I believe that the culture of remembrance is one of the main tasks of urban cultural policy.

[00:02:23] Not just to create memorials or hold obligatory commemorations on certain days of remembrance,

[00:02:32] but with a very specific content and this content is on the one hand to see where gaps in research can be supported,

[00:02:44] to close these research gaps, these research gaps then also, or the results of this research,

[00:02:53] then to make them accessible to a broad public and this accessibility must pick people up.

[00:03:00] That means, on the one hand, we have to make sure that we investigate the victims and the perpetrators and the places and make them visible

[00:03:10] and we have to make sure that we convey the knowledge, the research, in such a way that it is also embedded in current situations,

[00:03:22] it has to be transformed into the present, so to speak, because I believe

[00:03:26] that historical knowledge in connection with current developments is very important, also for the future of a society.

[00:03:35] Tobias: Same question for you, Irene. Where do you see the role of the city or urban policy in relation to remembrance policy and places of remembrance?

[00:03:46] Irene: Following on from what the councillor said,

[00:03:51] of course I can absolutely subscribe to all of that, there are several problems in the so-called culture of remembrance

[00:04:01] Starting with research gaps, as Uschi has just said. The other thing is contemporary witnesses,

[00:04:09] people who, when we talk about the Dritten Reich, experienced it all themselves and can talk about it themselves,

[00:04:15] there are hardly any left and fewer and fewer every day, so to speak, because they are naturally now at an age

[00:04:24] where their lifespan is manageable. And eyewitness accounts are a verydrucksful possibility,

[00:04:33] to think about a certain time and certain events. Of course, there are now many audio documents,

[00:04:40] interview recordings and so on, but it's different when I go to drÃand listen to something,

[00:04:45] than when I sit opposite a person and can look them in the eye and they tell me what they experienced back then,

[00:04:50] suffered or even committed. The other story is that we fortunately live in a colorful society today,

[00:05:00] in which people from different cultures come together and with different cultural backgrounds,

[00:05:05] also cultural and historical backgrounds. And of course there are also many people drunter,

[00:05:11] for whom the Nazi era, the Dritte Reich, the Second World War, was not a form of incision, of censorship,

[00:05:20] of a dark cloud, as is rightly self-evident for us, in Germany, in Austria,

[00:05:26] in Central Europe, in the entire European region. That means people from other cultures,

[00:05:32] who may have heard about it at school or in some other way, but for whom it is not this very personal

[00:05:41] burden responsibility, whatever you want to call it, I think you have to give them, if they also live with us

[00:05:49] and are part of our society, try to convey why this time is so extremely important for us.

[00:05:57] And I always say now, as an example of the peoples... so from a different perspective, the genocide of the Armenians,

[00:06:04] we know about it because we learned about it in school or whatever,

[00:06:10] this great historical and traumatic event that still overshadows so much today,

[00:06:17] by its very nature it is not for us Central Europeans.

[00:06:22] Tobias: At the time of the recording, the tender or the creation of the possible new memorial site was underway

[00:06:30] on the site of the former Reichnau labor education camp.

[00:06:35] We were also present this year, where we all drei were also present, at the opening of the time points.

[00:06:41] So we attended the Innsbruck alternative of the Stolpersteine, which was also a very nice event,

[00:06:48] which again shows how important it is to take up topics, to process them and not to talk about, how shall we put it?

[00:06:56] stumble or stumble into it and then create something that is quite fast,

[00:07:03] or on Druck from the outside, what is created.

[00:07:07] And because I have you here, it might not be entirely unwise,

[00:07:12] perhaps a little bit of the political process based on the points in time.

[00:07:18] But let's start like this, if it's planned now, be it Reichenau, be it the points in time,

[00:07:26] be it another memorial, which can happen or be initiated in the future.

[00:07:32] How do you start, how do you get the ball rolling, so to speak, so that politics is also involved?

[00:07:40] Uschi: Well, first of all, the office of councillor and the work of the culture committee are very closely interlinked,

[00:07:50] because the city law of the provincial capital of Innsbruck defines our constitution exactly,

[00:07:56] how the procedures have to be in order to reach a decision.

[00:08:00] And the issue of timing is perhaps a very good one, because it depends on the decision-making situation, so to speak

[00:08:07] and in terms of the implementation situation, it's already a finished project.

[00:08:12] It will never be finished because the citizens are also in demand,

[00:08:17] to pick up on the moments and initiate them themselves, but in terms of political decisions, it's finished.

[00:08:24] And that means in concrete terms, there was a push by some citizens in Innsbruck,

[00:08:32] a very intense demand for so-called stumbling blocks.

[00:08:37] And of course, this topic also reached us in the Culture Committee.

[00:08:42] And we didn't immediately say yes, a good idea, or reject it outright,

[00:08:49] but what we are doing is getting expertise on this issue from historians on the one hand

[00:08:59] and on the other hand from the Jewish community.

[00:09:03] And it turned out in the course of our discussions and after obtaining the expert opinions,

[00:09:09] that we no longer see the model of the stumbling blocks as appropriate.

[00:09:14] Above all, we have always had the uneasy feeling that it is actually not appropriate,

[00:09:20] when you stumble over the victims drÃor climb onto these memorial stones draso to speak.

[00:09:29] And then we decided in the culture committee that we would set up a working group like this

[00:09:34] and actually held a small competition or a call for tenders,

[00:09:39] where we were accompanied by Weissraum [Designforum Tirol for contemporary visual communication and design], who are now also accompanying us on the issue of Reichenau

[00:09:46] and have chosen the present, well-known model from it

[00:09:53] and the steps, so to speak, and Irene please correct me, intervene,

[00:09:58] if I don't remember everything exactly now,

[00:10:01] because I have so many projects in many areas that things often get mixed up,

[00:10:07] but in any case, the culture committee selected what was known from the proposals submitted, so to speak.

[00:10:15] And then, since a city committee is only an advisory body,

[00:10:21] Did I say that wrong?

[00:10:23] Ah, Irene, you say it.

[00:10:25] Irene: The basic idea was, which we have also just discussed with experts,

[00:10:32] personalized individual memorial and remembrance signs

[00:10:39] to victims of National Socialism

[00:10:42] and, if possible, close to or preferably at their last voluntarily chosen place of residence in Innsbruck.

[00:10:50] In other words, if someone lived in the, I say on purpose now, what fantasy name at Erdäpfelstraße 12,

[00:10:59] before he was deported to a concentration camp, for example, and so on,

[00:11:04] should have a personal memorial and remembrance sign either on the house, if possible, or if possible nearby

[00:11:11] be attached to this person.

[00:11:15] It is true that we have spoken out against stumbling blocks.

[00:11:19] Personally, my biggest objection to this is actually the names of the victims

[00:11:25] and thus trampling the victims underfoot, that doesn't seem right to me.

[00:11:30] Then, of course, we discussed this again and again with the Culture Committee

[00:11:37] and then announced a competition and it wasn't the culture committee that chose the result,

[00:11:43] but a jury of experts, of which I was one of the members,

[00:11:47] but historians, historians from the graphic arts sector and so on,

[00:11:54] simply experts from every conceivable sector involved,

[00:12:00] right up to a colleague from the IKB, because it's a good place,

[00:12:11] to put up what we now know is a time is masts.

[00:12:17] And how that works technically, you wouldn't think how difficult it can be [laughs briefly].

[00:12:21] I've learned an incredible amount in the course of this competition and this whole process.

[00:12:26] You need experts to tell you this is possible, this is not possible.

[00:12:30] You have to bend this sleeve, you can attach it this way or that way or not.

[00:12:34] There is an incredible amount of expertise from many different areas drin,

[00:12:38] not only at the obvious historical level, but also down to the technical details.

[00:12:47] What I think is also very important is that we, as those with political responsibility for a certain area,

[00:13:00] in our case, culture, do not believe that we have eaten wisdom with a spoon.

[00:13:05] Of course, there are experts in the city for all areas,

[00:13:11] Thank goodness we are well equipped, also thanks to the fact that we are a university city,

[00:13:17] that we have a, now I have to be a little bit slimy, a super-functioning, well-positioned city archive,

[00:13:25] with great colleagues who are always helpful and say, yes, we have something here,

[00:13:30] or look, you could do that and so on.

[00:13:32] Well, I'm sucking up a bit, but it's ...

[00:13:35] Tobias: On behalf of the city archive, I'm happy to accept that.

[00:13:37] Irene: It's simply the truth.

[00:13:39] Slime is easy when you tell the truth.

[00:13:41] Uschi: Maybe just a quick addendum.

[00:13:43] It was also, for example, just so you can see the dimension, the traffic law was included,

[00:13:48] because, so to speak, signs that are placed on the road must of course not impair the safety of traffic.

[00:13:56] And the road manager from the civil engineering department was also there, because it's not just time markers that are placed on poles,

[00:14:04] but also, where possible and otherwise not possible, on pillars that have to be anchored in the road.

[00:14:10] So, I found it very nice that the project, that the culture of remembrance, so to speak, has also seeped into authorities and technical offices.

[00:14:20] And I think that was also an enrichment for these people.

[00:14:23] Tobias: And I think at this point you could perhaps also thank IKB, who also took care of the maintenance and the ...

[00:14:30] So, as far as I know, even if they are now cleaning and making sure, so to speak, that if there are errors, errors,

[00:14:37] or if something is not right, then you also report it.

[00:14:40] Which is also very, very important, because just because it's hanging in the dran case, it still has to be maintained and cleaned if necessary or something else.

[00:14:50] Let's stay with the dates for a moment, the project has been finalized, so to speak, or at least selected.

[00:14:56] So, in the jury by this jury?

[00:15:00] Irene: Exactly, then it goes to a cultural committee, which is presented there once, because the specialist committees, i.e. the municipal council, the 40-member, elected

[00:15:08] municipal council with various parties and groups, as the population elected us in 2018 in the last election

[00:15:16] put together. So we are responsible for six years for more or less

[00:15:21] everything that happens in the city and that falls within the city's legal area of responsibility

[00:15:28] Innsbruck and the municipal council. Forms specialist committees, in our case culture,

[00:15:34] but of course there are also specialist committees for all other areas, from finance to sport to

[00:15:41] construction to social affairs etc. etc. Everything that the municipal council then has to decide on. The specialist committees

[00:15:50] are, as they are called, active in a preliminary advisory capacity for the municipal council, or under

[00:15:56] circumstances also for the city senate. That's, you can't say government, I've learned,

[00:16:01] because the city of Innsbruck doesn't have a government in that sense, the city of Innsbruck has a

[00:16:05] mayor, a female mayor and then members of the city senate, i.e. city councillors

[00:16:10] Councillors, such as Uschi Schwarzl, who is the city councillor responsible for, among other things

[00:16:15] culture and many other departments. Culture committee discusses, reads under certain circumstances

[00:16:23] again experts to discuss something with them and then makes a recommendation

[00:16:28] recommendation to the city senate or municipal council to decide on topic X in this way.

[00:16:35] Uschi: And whether a recommendation from a committee goes to the city senate or to the municipal council depends

[00:16:44] partly depends on the amounts involved. If the costs are neverdrihigher, the city senate is enough. At

[00:16:52] higher amounts, it also has to go to the municipal council or when it comes to guidelines. That has to

[00:16:57] in any case in the municipal council, so that is precisely regulated in the municipal law, which competence

[00:17:02] which committee has. But the committees themselves only have the right to make proposals and no independent

[00:17:08] right to make decisions. Tobias: Does that basically mean, if I understand it that way, that the Culture Committee,

[00:17:13] now I'll say, if it's not unanimous or if it's not recommended by the culture committee,

[00:17:22] to implement it, but how does it still end up in either a state senate or a local council?

[00:17:27] Uschi: Every decision, whether positive or negative, majority or unanimous, comes into the

[00:17:34] next higher body. And if the culture committee had decided not to take any

[00:17:40] of the projects and not implement anything now, then, so to speak, yes, in the end it would probably have been

[00:17:46] no recommendations would have been made at all, but there are zero decisions or no decisions

[00:17:51] mainly concern subsidies. If you apply to us for a cultural subsidy,

[00:17:55] then I would say, well, what he's doing [Uschi smiles, Tobias laughs] has nothing to do with culture or anything.

[00:18:01] Tobias: The podcast, for example.

[00:18:02] Uschi: There are no subsidies, but your application will still go to the state senate or local council,

[00:18:09] depending on how much you've applied for, but just rejected, but the local council

[00:18:14] or the state senate could still change the decisiondre.

[00:18:18] Irene: Theoretically, so of course they could, but the specialist committees of the local council

[00:18:24] are made up of municipal councillors, depending on the strength of their parliamentary groups in the

[00:18:31] municipal council. This means that if there is a full majority or unanimity in the

[00:18:36] Culture Committee for or against any particular topic or project, this is to be

[00:18:42] it can be assumed that there will be no change between the culture committee and the municipal council meeting two weeks later

[00:18:48] opinions change by 100 percentdreand then suddenly the majority is in favor of

[00:18:52] or against it. So it never actually happens in practice.

[00:18:57] If it's close, then it can, because of course the smaller ones, the one and two people in

[00:19:02] groups are not represented in the committees, only as listeners

[00:19:06] admitted, it could happen that a close result is thendreeither way.

[00:19:13] But I must also emphasize very clearly, because I am very, very pleased that especially

[00:19:18] unanimity or unanimity is actually normal in the culture of remembrance. Uschi: Unanimity actually always.

[00:19:26] Irene: Well, I don't want to say anything wrong, but I can't remember any of the

[00:19:31] projects that we have decided on and implemented or started in the last few years,

[00:19:35] to implement them, that there were any dissenting voices, i.e. from the small, one-person

[00:19:41] groups to the largest groups in the municipal council, regardless of political affiliation,

[00:19:47] there was always unanimity.

[00:19:49] And I think that's very, very important as a signal to the elected representatives

[00:19:56] of the people of Innsbruck are in agreement, arguing about many things.

[00:20:00] And that's a good thing.

[00:20:01] Tobias: That's also right.

[00:20:02] Irene: That's also the way to say it.

[00:20:03] Arguing or discussing controversially is nothing negative.

[00:20:07] I can see that, that's my opinion.

[00:20:09] But on these topics, after long, thorough preparations and discussions, we are on the same page

[00:20:15] of course,

[00:20:16] we are in agreement and also want to send this signal to the people of Innsbruck

[00:20:23] send.

[00:20:24] Uschi: Which wasn't really the case in earlier years and I think it also has something to do with that,

[00:20:29] that an incredibly lively and competent scientific scene has developed in Innsbruck. Irene: Definitely yes!

[00:20:37] Uschi: And we can draw on an extremely high level of expertise and we can also use it

[00:20:45] make very intensive use of it.

[00:20:47] Also thanks to the people, whether at the university or as mediators

[00:20:55] in schools or in the cultural sector.

[00:20:58] It's a wonderful form of collaboration and a great deal of trust has been built up over the years

[00:21:04] I think a great deal of trust has developed over the years, a mutual trust, and that is essential for bringing about the best possible

[00:21:10] broadly supported decisions I think is also very important.

[00:21:13] Irene: I completely share your assessment.

[00:21:16] We can really be extremely happy and grateful for the contemporary historians

[00:21:23] in Innsbruck.

[00:21:24] They are simply top-notch and I don't think I'm saying anything wrong when I say that they have

[00:21:33] in the last few years they've also realized that it makes sense to work with us.

[00:21:40] The fact that we don't just shout about dre, but make a real effort to find solutions

[00:21:44] find solutions, make progress and so on.

[00:21:47] So, no, I'll just say it now, I believe that in this area, we politicians

[00:21:54] have also proven to be reliable partners in recent years.

[00:21:59] They are already serious.

[00:22:00] Who don't just say something pious and unctuous in Sunday speeches, but

[00:22:06] who really want to make a difference.

[00:22:08] And especially in the area of remembrance culture, we've actually seen in these last six years

[00:22:15] made a lot of progress.

[00:22:17] Tobias: Maybe just to conclude, is there anything from your point of view that you would like to pass on?

[00:22:23] want to pass on.

[00:22:24] I think I can say it in that case, you're both leaving now at the next

[00:22:29] municipality or with the next election, from your offices.

[00:22:32] Is there anything you want to pass on to your successors in a political sense?

[00:22:38] or also to the population, where you say it's important to us that it continues to be

[00:22:44] remains so strong, which simply has to be preserved?

[00:22:48] Irene: When it comes to the culture of remembrance, I think it's very important to say that it's a process

[00:22:56] that can never be completed with the finalization of a very specific project

[00:23:02] or with the implementation of a project.

[00:23:05] Because the most important thing about the culture of remembrance for me is to recognize the past for its

[00:23:15] relevance for the present.

[00:23:18] So to say, what does that have to do with me?

[00:23:20] What does that have to do with my time?

[00:23:23] What does that have to do with what we do in the future?

[00:23:27] How do we want to live together in the future?

[00:23:29] How we raise our children, what we give them and so on and so forth.

[00:23:36] And that's why we've managed to implement a lot of things in the last few years, or at least

[00:23:42] on the way and I'm happy about that, but I think that also has to be

[00:23:47] next municipal council must be aware of that, that's not the end of it.

[00:23:51] And then we say, okay, thank God, we've chopped that off now, that's it [laughs].

[00:23:55] Can't be right, can't be right.

[00:23:58] Even if the time distance increases, it doesn't change the importance of the topics.

[00:24:06] And overall, I believe that the next municipal council should not underestimate that art

[00:24:18] and culture are simply a foodstuff.

[00:24:22] Mag be that someone rarely goes to the theater or hardly ever to concerts of any kind

[00:24:29] or that they say they get cramps at art openings Mage.

[00:24:34] It's all right, it's all right.

[00:24:36] Tobias: Definitely, yes.

[00:24:37] Nobody has to stand around at a vernissage and talk about a painting in a clever and educated way

[00:24:44] be able to talk about it.

[00:24:46] But culture and art are the fuel in our tank.

[00:24:55] I don't want to start a mobility debate now with the mobility city councillor

[00:25:01] Uschi Schwarzl.

[00:25:02] But the next municipal council should also be aware of this, and not just as a Sunday speech,

[00:25:12] because otherwise Innsbruck would no longer be Innsbruck and would be so much poorer than it is now

[00:25:20] is now.

[00:25:21] Uschi: Maybe I can start right away, because I... with culture in general

[00:25:26] my heart opens.

[00:25:28] Because you look a little bit outside the box and you don't have to go that far

[00:25:33] drive that far.

[00:25:34] Innsbruck is actually a small city, a medium-sized city and for its size it has

[00:25:44] cultural life, both in terms of its size and its population,

[00:25:49] that is actually sensational.

[00:25:51] Irene: I can only... I can only underline that! It really is like that.

[00:25:52] Uschi: In terms of variety, in terms of quantity and quality.

[00:25:58] And that's a treasure that needs to be cherished and that actually makes Innsbruck what it is.

[00:26:06] Innsbruck with only mountains and skiing would be poor.

[00:26:10] Innsbruck with these opportunities to go on a quick ski tour after work and

[00:26:16] and then go to a theater, it's incredible, it's unique.

[00:26:21] And I'm really out and about a lot at various events and it's becoming

[00:26:27] a lot of things are happening at the same time, but everything is always extremely well attended.

[00:26:32] And it would be fatal if a new municipal council wasn't aware of that.

[00:26:41] Point two on the culture of remembrance, I would like to say two things, a general one.

[00:26:47] I believe, as we have both already emphasized, that we have embarked on a very good, new path in the culture of remembrance since 2018.

[00:27:01] And it would be important and nice if the municipal council would continue on this path.

[00:27:07] And it's also very specifically about projects that have arisen from our work,

[00:27:14] to continue in a very concrete way.

[00:27:16] We will not have implemented the worthy commemoration of the Reichenau labor education camp until the municipal council,

[00:27:26] until the municipal elections.

[00:27:28] That means it will be up to the next municipal council to implement the final outcome of the competition.

[00:27:38] A new municipal council will implement the commemorative potential that we have just mentioned today,

[00:27:44] which have also emerged during this time and which are exactly where every year

[00:27:54] new forms of commemoration of the liberation of Mauthausen are possible and are implemented in accordance with the times.

[00:28:05] We also supported the research project on the Wehrmacht deserters.

[00:28:11] There will also be a personalized, but also localized commemoration based on these research results.

[00:28:25] Irene: Sorry, Uschi, if I'm sneaking in, the history of deserters, Wehrmacht deserters, was also very important to me.

[00:28:31] Unfortunately, we didn't get that any further..., we just didn't get that together.

[00:28:38] Uschi: Yes, because I think that's also...

[00:28:40] Irene: But it would be very important to me that something happens in the next few years.

[00:28:46] Uschi: But I think it's also a form of seriousness if you really work through the things, the projects bit by bit and don't do everything at the same time in a hysterical way, so to speak,

[00:28:58] because then the quality suffers.

[00:29:02] But we have, so to speak, set things in motion in terms of implementation and we have laid the foundations for future implementation and it is up to the next municipal council to make something of it.

[00:29:15] And I'm convinced that, regardless of the outcome of the election, what we've laid the foundations for won't be so easy to overturn.

[00:29:27] Tobias: I think that sums it up quite well on the subject of the culture of remembrance.

[00:29:31] It just has to be well thought out, it can't be a quick-fire decision.

[00:29:37] It needs committees behind it, it needs experts behind it who advise.

[00:29:42] And together, mostly, so far we've managed to get great projects off the ground thanks to your help.

[00:29:50] And you just have to say that loud and clear.

[00:29:52] [Outro music]

[00:30:08] Tobias: Archivwürrdig is a production of the Stadtarchiv Innsbruck and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck.

Tobias: Hello and welcome to the seventh episode of our third season of Archivwürdig, the podcast of the Innsbruck City Archives. In the two previous episodes, we already mentioned the "Zeitpunkte Innsbruck". The "Zeitpunkte" are Innsbruck's interpretation of the stumbling stones laid in many cities to commemorate people who were murdered during the Nazi regime. In this episode, we would like to present a summary of the official opening event of "Zeitpunkte", which took place on January 27, 2024. The event was opened by our Head of Cultural Affairs Isabelle Brandauer, who will also welcome you to our episode. #00:00:44-0#

[Intro music]

Isabelle: #00:00:59-7# (...) Ladies and gentlemen, I think there is hardly a better place in Innsbruck than the premises of the City Library to begin this ceremony with a quote from the great Austrian writer, pacifist and Jew Stefan Zweig. [Beginning quote] "On the day I lost my passport, I discovered at the age of 58 that you lose more with your homeland than a patch of enclosed earth" [end quote]. Zweig escaped the National Socialist terror by emigrating to London and later Brazil. His books were included on the list of book burnings. in 1942, Zweig and his wife Lotte took their own lives in Brazil. Zweig lived in Salzburg from 1919 until he fled to England. There is a stumbling block at his former place of residence. From August 2020 at the latest, the laying of Stumbling Stones in Innsbruck was also the subject of heated debate. Innsbruck decided to go its own way and set up a working group via the Culture Committee. Today, we are proud to present the result of these months of work. #00:02:25-1#

Tobias: #00:02:27-2# The mayor in office at the time of the recording, Georg Willi, had the following to say at the opening of these memorials. #00:02:34-3#

Willi: #00:02:35-1# We have come together to commemorate and remember the victims of National Socialism. We laid a wreath together earlier. But we have also come together to present how we want to live and experience a contemporary culture of remembrance in Innsbruck in the future. We want to remember. Our responsibility for the past, for the present and for the future. It is important to remember not only the atrocities, but also the people. Not only of their deaths, but also of their lives. Not as numbers, but with a name, an address, an identity, their history. I ended my words today at the wreath-laying ceremony at the memorial to the Reichenau labor education camp with these sentences. I wanted to begin my words of greeting here again with these words. We want to remember. Aware of our responsibility for the past, for the present and for the future. Remembering is deeply human. Memory, whether individual or collective, is always part of and a prerequisite for learning. The theoretical and practical knowledge accumulated in our memory helps us in everyday life and helps us in crises. We can recognize risks as such more quickly and prevent them. We can adapt our behavior and thus ourselves. We can even learn to remember better. We want to remember and must do so in a timely manner. This also means doing justice to the victims in particular, giving them back, at least symbolically, what was irretrievably taken from them under National Socialist rule. That is why we want to remember them not primarily as victims, but as human beings. I would like to repeat not only their deaths, but also their lives. Not as numbers. But with a name. With an address. With an identity. With history. And not separated in a museum, in an archive, shunted off to the edge of the city. Not limited to individual days of remembrance, but everyday and in the middle of the city. This is the idea behind the "Zeitpunkte" project: not only to make victims of National Socialism visible, but to create space for them in our city and thus enable interpersonal encounters at eye level across time and space. #00:05:49-7#

Tobias: #00:05:50-5# Afterwards, Stefan Amann from Proxydesign spoke about the concept of "Zeitpunkte" and Niko Hofinger from the Innsbruck City Archive about the concrete implementation of "Zeitpunkte". #00:06:01-4#

Stefan: #00:06:03-0# Yes, it's a great pleasure and a great honor to be here, together with Niko Hofinger on stage, and to introduce them to the "Zeitpunkte". Initially only on a conceptual level. We will then examine the originals together. The project group had laid the foundation, this decentralized commemoration that leads into the... into the urban space. And there you can already see that the "points in time" are actual points. Points in the city, but also points in history. And above all, they are points in... not only in history, but also points in the lives of the people who are primarily affected, namely the victims. And that's the core, so to speak. The important thing with the dates was not to summarize them per address, so to speak. Instead, we really wanted to commemorate each person individually. Out of respect for the individual person, but also to make visible the scale, the number of victims affected. And this individual commemoration and this point in people's lives has resulted in a very strong reduction of information, which focuses on people's lives. The mayor has already mentioned it, not only on death, but above all on people's lives, because they were Innsbruck residents who spent large parts or all of their lives here, who were part of a community. And we then radically shortened this information and with this empathic for oversight. And you can already tell from the text that someone is commemorating another person and, in my eyes, that's all it takes at first to feel that someone is commemorating someone else. Everything else, all the data, the biography, the context, you can call that up later. That's what digital media is for. They are wonderful, they are available everywhere. And the second thing is the formal value of form that was mentioned. Yes, and these "points in time" have become actual points. Short jumps, which are located in the urban space, are said to be about the size of the palm of your hand and they actually go - and this is also important to me - they are not industrial products, so to speak, but actually go through many hands. So even when you see them, they are basically very similar, but each one is a little bit different. That's down to the manufacturing process. I modeled the original form. Wolfgang Christmann casts them in bronze, Roland Atlassic polishes them, Angelika Hölzl engraves the names, Silli Baumann seals them and Matthias Praxmarer assembles them. And you can see that it goes through many hands. And that's more or less the beginning of remembering. And I believe that it is precisely this passing through many hands that results from the work of many hands and that the work that is done beforehand is not even taken into account in the research. I'm only speaking for my own modest part, so to speak. Exactly. I've just said it. You will find them digitally. Of course you can meet them, they change. As life changes, so do the "times", depending on the weather and the angle. And from whichever street corner I come from, they are sometimes quite inconspicuous. And sometimes, when the sun shines on them, they light up. And I think they enrich the cityscape in Innsbruck and are a beautiful and contemporary form that hopefully corresponds to the project group and what they wanted. #00:10:15-8#

Niko: #00:10:16-6# Thank you very much, Stefan. I can't even remember the day after school when our city archives director Lukas came in and said "We've found the ideal project". And to this day, I still think it was the ideal project. We started with all kinds of wishes, but you can never formulate them as precisely as a creative person who comes from a creative background can. And I personally am a big fan of reduction and there really is no better reduction than this for these "points in time". It works. And yes, thank you very much for this, for this great design and for all the support up to and including the website, which is online today. Of course, the website needs to be a strong companion and it also needs a group of people who feel responsible for the content. Under no circumstances should I forget to thank Horst Schreiber, who solved the difficult task for us of opening up the entire fan with the first group of possible biographies. Today, January 27th, Auschwitz Liberation Day. But these "points in time" cover a much wider variety of people. We have resistance fighters, deserters, a Jehovah's Witness, very different people who were killed by the National Socialists for a wide variety of reasons. And we have also included a Jewish family, simply because it fits in very well with today's date. Horst Schreiber first broke down the biographies, researched them and wrote them. And I think this work deserves a round of applause! Thank you, Horst [applause can be heard].

What happens next from our point of view? We hope it has already been mentioned twice. But I'll say it again: we really hope that people will say "Yes, that's exactly what I want in front of my house". And the stories continue. Last week we found a new Jewish victim of death from Innsbruck. New biographies are being told. We have a restriction that is once again very different from the Stumbling Stones. I would also like to say that at this point. We have oriented ourselves on the fact that there have been similar projects in many German cities, especially Bavarian cities. And in the end, it's always really about "wording" and the exact definition. And we said we would restrict it to people who died under National Socialism. That is a clear restriction. So that doesn't mean someone who had to flee for various reasons of racial persecution, for political reasons, not someone whose husband had to flee. So that, the very clear restriction to fatalities, clearly defines that. We stuck to an Augsburg definition that we actually liked very much in the group and where we said, well, that breaks it down, where remembering also makes sense as a city and as a city archive. #00:13:54-7#

Tobias: #00:13:56-0# Finally, I'll share with you an excerpt from the background discussion that took place in the city library after the opening ceremony. It will give you an insight into how this design competition came about in the first place.

Kurt Höretzeder: Yes, ladies and gentlemen, have a nice afternoon. This is now a so-called background discussion. #00:14:17-3#

#00:14:17-6# Funny, we're sitting on the stage without a background. [Quiet murmuring can be heard from the background]

It was a very, I would say, appropriate and dignified... event in the morning.

[Something has fallen over in the background]

But the fact that these stumbling blocks are now being unveiled in Innsbruck is the conclusion of a project lasting several years, and everything has already been said about it this morning. We would now like to give a few more insights into how the design competition came about. And that also explains why I'm sitting on the stage now, representing the WEI SRAUM [read: Weissraum], the design forum. We were commissioned by the city archive to accompany the design competition. And we do that regularly. Usually for topics that are either very complex, which was also the case here. Above all for public clients, which is of course very pleasing for us, because a certain role model effect from the public side is something that is of course very pleasing for every designer, especially in the field of design. And as WEI SRAUM, we have at least been able to contribute to a certain extent to the fact that this is gradually becoming common practice in Innsbruck, that when there are ambitious projects, we can support them. The memorial sign in Innsbruck, which was the working title and is now called "Zeitpunkte", was one such project and there is currently also a design competition that we are supporting, namely where the wreath-laying ceremony took place today in Reichenau, not far from where the current memorial stone stands, in the direction of the Inn, along the green corridor, there will hopefully be a memorial in a few years' time. That is actually the next step in this issue of the culture of remembrance in Innsbruck. We are also currently working on this. And we have already learned a great deal from the competition, and I would like to say very briefly that unfortunately it was all gentlemen. It wasn't intentional, it just turned out that way over time. But I would like to introduce it very briefly for those of you who do not yet know my interlocutors here so well. To my right, Stefan Amann works as a designer, is an interdisciplinary office, both in terms of access and geographically in Berlin, then in Hohenems and in Spain... Amann: Barcelona. Person? Barcelona! We've known each other for a long time. There was a competition six or seven years ago, which Proxy also won for Verkehrsverbund Tirol, a completely different area at the time. And Stefan and his office with his partners also have a very... I would say good name in his field in Austria. He is usually a very focused designer who... finds solutions that really get to the point. That was also one of the main reasons why you ultimately won the competition. To my left, Kurt Dornig. [Clears his throat]. Not Dörnig or Döring, as was written at the top of the slide today, but Kurt Dornig from Vorarlberg, Dornbirn. Why is Kurt there? On the one hand, because he is known as a graphic designer and illustrator, especially in the field of book design or corporate design. Perhaps everyone in Austria is familiar with the Biber catalogs, which are also managed by Kurt. So he's also one of the good designers who are not so rare in Vorarlberg; Vorarlberg has a relatively high and good [someone laughs in the background] density of designers. And Kurt Dornig was a jury chairman for the competition. And then Niko Hofinger. I read, Niko, that you are the house historian of the Jewish Community. I read that on Wallenstein Verlag, in your bio. But Niko, we've known each other for a long time. Incidentally, he also works in the field of, how shall we say, multimedia design. Many projects, including in the exhibition context, which you accompany, but of course he is also known as a historian in Innsbruck and also works in the city archive. Annika was also responsible for the technical implementation of the website for this project. For now the "points in time". And that's the reason why the four of us are sitting up here now. I would like to start with you, Kurt, describing how the competition went from your perspective as jury chairman. That's what we wanted in terms of content. At least one of the focal points. There are... well, there are words like "Never again", for example, that are said like that, and you hear them very often again right now, for understandable reasons. Nevertheless, language sometimes needs forms, manifestations. And this project of memorial signs, the original working title, was also an example of this. People like to say that words are smoke and mirrors. [Clears throat] Incidentally, the original quote is actually "Names are smoke and mirrors" from Goethe's Faust, for those who still know it somehow. And in this case it is quite literally so, so that such words or names are not so easily reduced to smoke and mirrors, in this case sadly also often to be understood proverbially, it is sometimes necessary to think about how to give such topics a form And that's what the design competition was for. Kurt, can you briefly describe from your perspective as chairman of the jury how the competition went? #00:20:15-9#

Kurt Dornig: #00:20:17-8# Yes. Thank you for the invitation. First of all, I would like to thank WEI SRAUM. As a partner for the organizer, the city of Innsbruck, and also on the other side for the creative people who... It's anything but a matter of course to have such a competent partner in the middle. And that's always a stroke of luck for both sides. Anyone who has ever taken part in a competition where there was simply an open call for entries and then everyone got involved knows what I'm talking about when everyone has to start working straight away before it's even clear what the framework conditions will be, etc. And that's where WEI SRA comes in. And the WEI SRAUM really is a role model in this respect. Something that we would also like to have in Vorarlberg in this form, where everything is taken care of very, very competently, everything is very transparent and the right creative agencies and design offices are invited accordingly. And that brings me to the topic you mentioned. The process was actually that you first put it out to tender openly. And with a very, very comprehensive and clear briefing. And the - I can't remember exactly - 20 or 25 creative offices that responded to this call for tenders were then reduced to six offices in an initial review with a points system, which then received a clear, invited competition brief. This was also linked to a detailed briefing. And in the jury, i.e. in this first round of judging, it was of course also very important to us that we included as wide a range of different design personalities as possible. In other words, young, old, different areas, different focuses, different life experiences. In other words, we wanted to be able to expect suggestions for solutions from as many directions as possible. And... In the presentation itself, it was really... Actually, this hope was also fulfilled to a certain extent. Basically, it has to be said that all six of the invited agencies and design offices have dealt extremely intensively with the topic, with the very sensitive topic [A door in the background closes], have informed themselves and in some cases have really come up with very different solutions. And... #00:23:31-0#

Kurt Dornig: #00:23:33-2# The... #00:23:33-5# [Long pause]

Kurt Dornig: #00:23:35-4# Whereby five of these six agencies... [Pause] Have found or sought a solution, an approach to a solution, by using all the information and we have already heard one of these biographies in great detail today. So of course you could present and write it in an even more reduced way, but they tried to put all this information on the spot. And during the presentations, it actually became quite clear that this would take up an extremely large amount of space, that some very large structures would have had to be built here in order to implement this, which of course involves a great deal of effort and expense, but also a great deal of maintenance. And also, unfortunately, it has to be said that vandalism is becoming more and more of an issue these days. And the solution from Proxy [pause]. It was actually convincing from... from the very first moment, because they didn't go down this route, because they were very reduced and yes, literally to the point... This memorial sign with incredible aesthetics and... and great empathy. Placed so naturally in the space that it is at eye level, which is also the difference to the memorial stones that are embedded in the ground and the stumbling blocks that are embedded in the ground, which are walked on, which are also exposed to the weather and do not fall into the face at eye level and and and and... They also form a striking part of the cityscape and street furniture. And today you have good opportunities with QR codes and websites etc. to place this background information in a very detailed form in another medium. And you were actually the only ones who came up with this solution, which I don't want to say is very obvious, but simply came up with it. And it was immediately convincing because it simply had the same aesthetic quality that we had seen in the presentation before. Funnily enough, if I may interject, I was immediately approached by a young woman, probably a student here in Innsbruck, who immediately asked me what, what, what was being unveiled here. It looks so beautiful and she immediately asked about the background information. And she was extremely impressed by what she saw. And he did. And I think we'll have this experience more often. #00:26:32-4#

Kurt Höretzeder: #00:26:34-8# Maybe you can add that it was also a unanimous jury decision. #00:26:38-4#

Kurt Höretzeder: #00:26:39-7# [clears throat] There are other competitions where you often have the good fortune that perhaps two almost equal, often very different approaches are chosen as winners. In this case, it was very clear. So it was actually clear to the entire jury that this was the winning project. I would also like to add very briefly. Larger design competitions are usually carried out anonymously. This means that the jury doesn't even know who the entrant is during the jury meeting. In this competition, it was definitely [clears throat] decided differently. That means there was a personal presentation of the various participants, invited participants and... #00:27:20-2#

#00:27:21-5# That, in turn, has the reason #00:27:22-5#

#00:27:22-5# in the fact that with such a sensitive topic. Then you have to somehow get a picture of the people behind it. And so they decided on this personal presentation. #00:27:34-6#

[Outro music]

Tobias: #00:27:53-0# (...) Archivwürdig is a production of the Stadtarchiv Innsbruck and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. #00:28:00-2#

Tobias: Hello and welcome to the eighth and final episode of our third season of Archivwürdig, the podcast of the Innsbruck City Archives. In today's episode, we would like to talk about the new memorial to the former Reichenau labor education camp. For this reason, I sat down with four members of the working group Pawlik, Denzer, Machat, Schlorhaufer, Ziegner to talk about their chosen winning project. Among other things, we talk about the genesis of the idea, its further development and also try to present the most important elements of the memorial site. [Intro music]

Tobias: In today's episode, we talk about the Reichenau memorial site project. You were chosen as the winning project in an international competition. We are currently in the process of implementing this project. And I think it's good for our listeners to hear about the project in general, but also, of course, how it came about. And to do this, I would perhaps like to start by having the people who were involved in the project introduce themselves. And I would say it's best to start with Ricarda and then move on to Hermann. Ricarda, if I could ask you to say a few words about yourself. #00:01:36-3#

Ricarda: #00:01:38-7# Yes, my name is Ricarda Denzer. I came to the project as a visual artist, as part of it or involved in it. I went to school in Tyrol, had a brief excursion into architecture in Innsbruck, then began my studies in Vienna at the Angewandte, studied conceptual art and worked as a freelancer for over 20 years and now also have a teaching position as a senior lecturer at the Angewandte, where I spent five years as head of transdisciplinary art, the Trans Arts Co. and I am still working there as a senior lecturer, have done a whole series of projects in public space, site-specific projects, have a strong connection to spoken language, oral history, working with audiovisual media as well as installative settings and site-specific works. The question of memory and the culture of remembrance runs through all my work to this day. #00:02:39-5#

Tobias: #00:02:39-9# Thank you very much, Hermann, if I can go on to you... Hermann: Yes. Tobias: May I give. #00:02:43-7#

Hermann: #00:02:43-7# My name is Hermann Ziegner. I was born in Innsbruck, studied architecture here in Innsbruck and then finished my studies in New York. I've been living in New York for 25 years now and have a small agency for data visualization and information aesthetics. Yes, and in the project I was mainly responsible for the website and the graphic concept and of course the entire concept. #00:03:13-1#

Tobias: #00:03:13-6# Then I'd like to introduce a person I haven't mentioned yet. And may I ask Heinz, if you introduce Bettina in your absence. Heinz: With pleasure. #00:03:24-4#

Heinz: #00:03:24-4# My name is Bettina Schlorhaufer [everyone laughs]. I'm an art historian and head of two institutes at the Faculty of Architecture in Innsbruck. She works at the Institute for Architectural History and the Institute for Architectural Theory. We have a long-standing friendship with Bettina Schlorhaufer, and we asked her to join the project because she has great expertise in all things to do with contemporary history, especially the history of architecture in contemporary history and research into the 20th century in Tyrol and South Tyrol. Bettina is also an excellent writer, which is why, in addition to the precise and accurate research of images and graphic material as a basis for the competition, she also prepared texts for us, conducted text and source research and took on the content review of our project. #00:04:27-6#

Tobias: #00:04:28-0# Then I can hand over to Heike, who briefly introduces herself. #00:04:31-4#

Heike: #00:04:31-8# Thank you very much. Yes, my name is Heike Pawlik. I'm an architect in Innsbruck. I also studied architecture in Innsbruck. In addition to my office work, I also work at the university, at the Institute for Experimental Architecture, Building Construction, and before I worked there, and before I had my own architectural office, I ran an agency, an office for web design and media design, together with Heinz Machat. #00:05:10-4#

Tobias: #00:05:10-9# Last but not least, I'd like to ask Heinz to introduce himself. #00:05:15-6#

Heinz: #00:05:15-9# My name is Karl Heinz Machat. Like Hermann and Heike, I studied architecture in Innsbruck, with a period of study in the USA, in Los Angeles. In addition to architecture and furniture design, Heike and I also worked on e-learning projects and knowledge management in our office and have recently become more and more involved in architecture and art projects alongside our teaching activities at the university. #00:05:45-9#

Tobias: #00:05:46-4# Now there has been this call for proposals or the international call to participate in the project for a new memorial site or for a memorial site in Reichenau. How did you come together as a group in this constellation, so to speak? Did the ball start rolling with one person? And is that the good old snowball effect? And...#00:06:08-3#

Heike: #00:06:08-3# Hermann should answer that. Hermann: There was... #00:06:11-5#

Hermann: #00:06:11-5# ...there was a funny detour somehow via New York. I got an email from an architect friend of mine and he drew my attention to this competition and we had actually already considered doing it together and then I looked into the matter and then this collaboration didn't take place after all. But then I... was already so involved in the subject matter that I spontaneously sent these documents to Heinz, who I know from my student days, and said "You're interested in this, should we take part?" Heinz: And the short answer was yes, immediately. [Laughter] We, we'll apply. I forwarded the question to Heike. #00:06:54-8#

Heike: #00:06:56-3# And the answer was clearly yes, immediately. And I passed the question on to Ricarda. [Laughs] #00:07:01-4#

Tobias: #00:07:02-0# And that's how the whole thing got going. Hermann: [laughing] That was a domino effect. #00:07:05-0#

Tobias: #00:07:05-1# Can you confirm that Ricarda? #00:07:06-0#

Ricarda: #00:07:06-1# I can absolutely confirm that. Exactly. #00:07:08-7#

[Tobias: #00:07:13-1# Where is the first point that you might approach a project like this? Do you think about the architectural aspects first? Or is it difficult to get to grips with anything at all? #00:07:25-9#

Hermann: #00:07:26-9# Maybe I can say something very briefly. We met for the first time in January, on January 2nd at Bettina's institute. And it was actually clear to us relatively quickly that we were going to approach this in a very non-hierarchical way. Although there were these areas, i.e. web design, the didactic concept of architecture, the artistic intervention. But between the five of us, it was actually clear from the start that we would approach everything as a group and flatten out these areas of responsibility in that sense. And let's say we now take it as an overall project in terms of content and concept. Heinz: So perhaps a quick comment: the preparations for this joint collaboration took place in the time before Christmas and perhaps the first thing you do is start to look into it in more detail, because you know something about the topic from hearsay and you've heard something at some point and perhaps informed yourself about it with more or less interest, but you don't actually tackle the books and publications that are available on the subject until you really have to. And it was a pretty tough time, I have to say. So to actually see how many people and under what circumstances they were held prisoner in Innsbruck, in Reichenau, that was quite impressive. We came into this time of cooperation with a primer, so to speak. #00:09:01-6#

Heike: #00:09:02-1# Into this physical collaboration, you have to say. That was the first time the five of us really met together on site. And in the preparatory phase, of course, we also looked at the property that was available to us. It's a very... we'll certainly go into it later, a somewhat extreme piece of land that we first had to get to know, so to speak, and get to grips with. And at the same time, there was also a theoretical examination of the culture of remembrance. Ricarda might have something to say about that. #00:09:37-0#

Ricarda: #00:09:37-0# For me, it's somehow important to simply start from the place that is intended for the memorial. Simply to see what you find there? What characterizes this place? And it's a place with different speeds. The cyclists, the pedestrians. And then it's a transit area. It's a place that is open on both sides. And it's a riverside promenade. In other words, our memorial site stretches along the Inn. And I think that also characterizes in a very special way that the approach or the decisions we made there for the project. #00:10:20-1#

[Tobias: #00:10:24-3# Then I would say that we really talk about the concrete or more concrete process that took place for you. We have it in the introduction or in the performances. Yes, Herrmann mentioned it. You're a bit spread out, not all of you are always in Innsbruck. It's probably not always so easy logistically to sit down together and continue working on the overall concept, of course. How and building on that, so to speak, what does it really look like in practice? Hermann: That's a good question. #00:10:55-7#

Hermann: #00:10:55-8# Well, the... this... this first meeting back in January was of course very intensive, it lasted a week, we met more or less all day every day and we debated a lot and because of that, of course, it was such an emotional topic, it was also very difficult. But in the end, the aim of this week was for us to clarify the topics that we wanted to address with this project. And after a week, we ended up with a large board in the institute with keywords and ideas that we then tried to incorporate in a variety of ways in the approach to a project that was architectural or graphic or artistic and one of these keywords was this idea of the. Of the fragment, of the fragment of memory. Yes, because relatively little is known in terms of actual information. We don't know the names of all the forced laborers and we only know 117 names of the people who died there. And otherwise there are just fragments, fragments of memory that are still there in the population and in my family, for example. So my mother can still remember the camp, but as a small child, how the camp was the denazification camp again. And my father can remember my grandfather, who also worked with the forced laborers in the roofing workshop. #00:12:35-7#

Heike: #00:12:36-0# Yes, I think I'd like to follow on from what Hermann said, because this week of working together and marking out the area, that's how it often is with competitions, then at the end you feel completely exhausted and actually have very little there, very little concrete. So somehow it has to continue to work in you and you think about it and then you try to find correspondences for these ideas and themes and get closer to them so that these themes become concrete and manifest themselves in a physical realization. And that was the work that we approached from different directions, so to speak. The first thing that manifested itself was the graphic idea of a treatment of the surface with a kind of pattern, I'll just call it that, and then the treatment of the terrain developed out of that, which or that complemented each other. [longer pause] Which the... Tobias: You're welcome to join in Heinz. Heike: Yes, exactly. Please Heinz, then... [laughs] #00:14:01-4#

Tobias: #00:14:01-9# You don't have to, #00:14:02-4#

Tobias: #00:14:02-4# but you're welcome to interject. #00:14:03-8# [Heike laughs in the background]

Heinz: #00:14:04-7# So I'd like to interject and pass this on to Ricarda, because I think at the beginning there really was the question of the representation of these victims. It was about. It was about the people and actually this pattern, the graphic pattern that emerged, had to do with the fact that we actually want to refer to over 8,000 people with what is supposed to be there. And that was actually, I think, the starting point in the preparation. #00:14:28-8#

Ricarda: #00:14:30-3# Maybe I can add something to that. The pattern naturally reinforces a movement that runs the entire length of the place. And this movement arises from the idea that something becomes visible, in the sense that something appears that perhaps cannot be named at first. And we have found an analogy there, simply looking at the Inn and the flowing, the flowing river. If you look from one bank to the other, if there is a current or a deviation in the flow within this surface, then you can assume that something is taking effect from below, that there is some kind of resistance or something is somehow disrupting this usual flow. Yes, it leaves a trace. And from this thinking in traces of this drawing and so on, this pattern also reinforces this surface of this landscape, where something becomes visible. It's like a basic narrative, or how do you see it? #00:15:35-7#

Heinz: #00:15:36-3# Yes, I would go even further Ric [short form for Ricarda], that this pressure that comes from below, where you what, where that, what gets stuck and brings things to the top, that this pattern was already well suited to represent or point out these many thousands of people. But of those we knew more about, I think we then decided relatively quickly that we wanted to show more. And that's when we came up with the idea of this drill core, where we actually get something out of this underground. And this underground actually gives us this representation and it also gets this name from this person. #00:16:20-5#

Ricarda: #00:16:20-9# The nice thing is that different ideas play a role here, they go hand in hand, because of course we're also talking about the question "What do we find?" Of course also from the archaeological finds, which are there as concrete material, and the question of probing, i.e. this going into depth and seeing what historical fragments can actually be found there and this fragmentary nature, this finding from the depths, i.e. this, which of course can also be described as sounding, i.e. listening in depth [laughs] or and then working with these fragments. And then we have this fragment of memory that Mr. Herrmann mentioned, but also the saying. Of course, it's one thing to get something out of the ground and to make it visible like a drill core. Yes, somehow we can't think of the right words or something, but we work with what's there. #00:17:15-5#

Hermann: #00:17:15-6# That's the interesting thing about the sounding, that it's also incomplete, or it's just a sample, a part of the whole. And that's how we saw it throughout the whole project, isn't it? And at the same time, we also did our own probing and started talking to the people we knew and doing this memory probing. In other words, to find these fragments and it very quickly became clear to us that a large part of the population still has memories of the camp and of that time and then, of course, what also comes out very clearly in this historical text by Dr. Pitscheider is how involved the city was with this camp and it is basically a history of the city. Of course, it is also the story of the people who were killed there, but for the most part, and I think that was a defining element of our project, it is a story of the city. And this uncovering, this probing of these fragments actually became the program. #00:18:23-2#

Tobias:#00:18:24-2# You have to say that this part of the city's history has been dormant for a very long time. So the depths have been dormant for a very long time. That was known on the surface. It was the subsequent use Hermann: Yes. Tobias: Which we've already talked about, it was there. These are people who lived in there and then it was gone and then there was always so little talk about it. Hermann: Yes. #00:18:43-4#

Hermann: #00:18:43-7# But if you talk to the people now, they still remember. It was mainly Heike and Ricarda who started conducting interviews. Maybe you'll say something about that. #00:18:56-1#

Heike: #00:18:56-1# Yes, I'd love to. Then we did. We had the good fortune... We... Well, I wanted to mention this very briefly beforehand to explain it: The program of this competition was not just the memorial site, the design of the memorial site on site. It also included several other points. It was about imparting knowledge, it was about a didactic concept. It was about creating an online representation and an archive. That was what we added to it, so to speak. And we were lucky enough to be able to ask Dr. Rauchegger-Fischer for the didactic concept to complement our team, so to speak. And she in turn put us in touch with two descendants of a former camp inmate who agreed to conduct interviews with us and thus hopefully open up a series of interviews with contemporary witnesses, secondary contemporary witnesses, which we would also like to collect as documentation material for this website. #00:20:09-3#

Ricarda: #00:20:10-7# Which shows once again that the project and the work on the project was transdisciplinary and interdisciplinary right from the start. In other words, everything that has been created has been created in relation to each other and is related to the respective fields and considerations and to the respective knowledge, and I think that makes it somehow very special. Of course, this also makes it partly intuitive, fragile and ambivalent. But it is something that is in motion. And that's really important to us as a basic prerequisite for a question like "What should this place be able to do?" Yes, the place itself also has something of a passage, but it's this movement, so to speak, that you don't simply conquer and master or systematize something, but that you say that what we want to tell there is also the way we work or we work, we try to work in a way that is somehow an important narrative for us there or a procedure. #00:21:13-8#

[Tobias: #00:21:18-5# But I would say we're already taking this step further towards the way the project is now. I don't know how best to do it. We'll just talk about the individual elements and then everyone can just add to it. Let's perhaps start again with the location, so that we pick up all the people again. In other words, we have on this green strip, which is now roughly from [longer pause] yes... #00:21:42-3#

Heike: #00:21:42-8# May I? I'd like to describe it, I'd like to describe it, because I wrote down the data. Tobias: Yes, very nice. [both laugh] Heike: So it's, it's about the green strip. Ricarda had already described it very well between the footpath and cycle path on the banks of the Inn outside the Grenoble Bridge towards the quarry pond, which is probably a household name for Innsbruck residents, and the competition area we were given is around 260 meters long and between six and 14 meters wide. So it's like this, it gets narrower and wider again and has a belly in between and is a green strip that is loosely planted with trees. And on this strip we were allowed to choose where and how we wanted to play. And we quickly decided that we wanted to use the whole field for it. #00:22:41-6#

Tobias: #00:22:42-3# May I... I'm now playing the ignorant person who knows, but uses how? #00:22:46-5# [both laugh]

Hermann: #00:22:48-0# Yes, as we've already mentioned a few times, this is actually a landscape, and that is that there was this play on words between walking and thinking, that is, the commemoration, this, this moving along from this wave, from this, from this landscape and there over these floor slabs, these, these fragments, to get a sense of how many fates were affected there. And then, of course, to see these name stones. These 114, um, 117 memorial stones, where the names are explicitly mentioned again. That's also very important to us. #00:23:27-9#

Tobias: #00:23:28-6# I'm thinking of the, well, the paving is also on the estimated 8/2 8000 people who came through this camp, so to speak, and the 114 name stones, the memorial stones, we should also go into that a bit separately... Hermann: Yes. Tobias: Simply to recognize, to describe that. So for those who [unintelligible] hear and don't see, in that case, perhaps, Heinz, if you don't mind, you can also briefly explain the thoughts behind these stones. Heinz: The stones #00:23:58-2#

Heinz: #00:23:58-2# They are part of this carpet of fragments. So every single person is a fragment. #00:24:05-3#

Heinz: #00:24:05-6# But that's us, because we know more #00:24:07-7# about these people

Heinz: #00:24:07-7# because they died violently in the camp or died of illness or were executed, we know from the death certificate who they were, where they came from and that's why we were able to identify them more closely. And just like a drill core, the name stone takes the subsoil up with it and confronts us. And we have decided to provide a slight incline on this upper surface, on which the name is then placed so that it confronts us. And perhaps, when the weather is nice, when the sun is right, this smooth surface will reflect a part of ourselves, because we have no images of these people. We have no photos, no other testimonies. #00:24:52-2#

Heinz: #00:24:52-8# And these, these #00:24:53-6#

Heinz: #00:24:53-6# People came to this camp in Reichenau either alone or in groups, were still connected to their homeland or their places of origin and we decided that this slight inclination towards their origin would become part of this name stone, so that each of these stones would have different heights, different materials and also this different inclination in order to individualize these people. And in the arrangement across this surface, which Heike described earlier, we decided to find a certain order. And that would then somehow be left to Heike to describe. #00:25:33-4#

Tobias: #00:25:33-4# But when I do, because that's something I really like, that the name is on it, that the dates of life are on it, because especially in the camp people were dehumanized, they got a number and no longer a name. So of course some of them were already recognizable, but for me at least it's like giving them back the name they deserve, which is their name. Hermann: Yes, there #00:25:57-4#

Hermann: #00:25:57-4# You're right. That's quite interesting. We noticed that too. In this list of the deceased, the deceased of Jewish origin are clearly recognizable, because they were all called either Israel or Sara. That was also discussed internally. Should we now take back these names and practically not include this Israel and and and Sara in the name, or not? But the fact of the name was already a very important part for us. Heinz: And I could bring Bettina into play again with a short quote, because she once said that through this, through this intervention, we give people a face back. And I think that's what it's a bit about. So the name is really a representation of the person behind it and how they appeared to us. Hermann: Yes, you wanted to say something else about the time... [unintelligible]. Heike: Exactly. #00:26:52-8#

Heike: #00:26:53-2# So we then, we wanted to represent these 100, at that time 114, deceased people and then the question arose as to how we could place these stones on the site. And then we had the idea of using this long plot of land, which would actually be very difficult, on the one hand, but on the other hand would offer the possibility of using this long plot of land as a kind of calendar. So we virtually divided the plot into the months of the camp's existence and placed the name stones on the dates of death. And so it's actually quite easy to recognize, or to see quite clearly, that there are times when, as they say, a lot of people died. Simply because it was cold, because it was cruel, because a change of guard created even more cruel conditions in the camp and so on. Tobias: Also changes #00:27:51-6#

Tobias: #00:27:51-6# the use, so the where, so where it was then also used much more as an interim camp or transit camp, which was then from [19]43 onwards, as you say, very close to [19]43. #00:28:06-5#

Heike: #00:28:06-6# Yes, exactly and and and #00:28:08-2#

Heike: #00:28:08-2# So that it's also clear for people who will walk through the area that there were times that were particularly hard in the camp and where a lot of people died. And perhaps I can also add to this. Heinz described earlier how the people were thrown together. So you can imagine when they, when a group of these name stones with different inclinations and different colors stand close together, that represents people who sometimes couldn't even understand each other because they didn't speak the same language, because they came from somewhere in Russia, Ukraine, Poland. And then there was also this extreme situation of loneliness and speechlessness. #00:29:00-3#

[Tobias: #00:29:04-7# That means we have the landscaping with the name stones. There's also a structural aspect, a larger one, the so-called pavilion. Could you perhaps briefly explain to me what it's supposed to look like and also what the idea behind this look is? #00:29:22-4#

Heinz: #00:29:23-0# Um, yes, with pleasure. So originally we actually wanted to keep this part as small as possible. We wanted to provide information about this place on site, of course, but we wanted it to be the memorial site itself. Hermann said it earlier about walking and thinking. And that with the corresponding sense of hearing and listening experience of the stories or what else will be heard with this audio path and this simply being there and being in this place, in this landscape, would also have meant being exposed to the inclemency of the weather. If it rains, it rains and we would have provided very little weather... or weather protection. Originally, because we believe or actually thought that it makes little sense to put architecture there on its own. That some special, special part should almost act as a temple or something, but that it is actually about the place itself and about what is shown there and what can be experienced there. And we weren't entirely satisfied with ourselves. So in terms of providing detailed information, in terms of the possibility for people to gather there, we were asked to expand on these ideas and not just intervene minimally. Hermann, what would you say to that? Hermann: I think that what was perhaps a little less clear to us at the beginning was how important it is to impart knowledge on site. And that was of course a good reminder from the jury to stop us. Because the school classes and visitors who visit this place really need to be involved in the history. And the history of the camp and the history of this camp network. Once again, I would like to emphasize very clearly that this is not just about Reichenau. There were several camps, also in Innsbruck and Tyrol and throughout the German Reich. Telling this story is a story that is still little told. And now we basically have two large information boards and a place with street furniture that allows smaller groups to meet there and deal with the subject matter. #00:31:38-7#

Heike: #00:31:39-4# Yes, perhaps a brief description of this pavilion. It's actually a roof with an area of about 160 square meters made of steel, which is supported by steel columns at a height of just over 3 meters above the ground. And under this roof are two walls. One 12 meters long, one 11 meters long, which carry the information that Hermann has just described, in varying degrees of detail, depending on the speed of movement of the people who either pass by on their bikes or on foot or who sit or stand in the middle under this roofing and can read the information. And this roof, this pavilion roof, also represents the many different places of origin or the paths of the people who have crossed in this camp via steel beams laid in a criss-cross pattern, and the roof is only partially closed and in parts it is completely open. So it can rain through. It is then less protective than you would perceive a roof to be. And there are sections in this roof that are then replaced, where the roof surface is replaced by other elements. And maybe Ricarda could say something about that. #00:33:10-1#

Ricarda: #00:33:10-7# Yes, exactly. So. It was passed on to me because I mentioned the archaeologists' findings before. And among other things, there are a whole series of colorful shards of glass. And these shards of glass naturally also have an analogy in this fragmentation of the roof. And for us, they are also a nice motif for thinking or as a motif, both visually and in terms of content, because of course the question is, we have a fragment of something that is no longer whole, how do we now fill the gaps with an idea, with a narrative? Or do we leave these empty spaces and the visitors are also invited, so to speak, to fill these spaces with their own memories, experiences and stories. In other words, this is of course also something that can be told very well in the audio path. But it is also expressed in the architecture of the pavilion. #00:34:18-6#

Tobias: #00:34:18-9# That was also the ideal keyword. Thank you Ricarda. The audio path, that's what I wanted to talk about next in the background. Of course, we live in modern times and information must always be up to date. And that's where the archive you've already written about, Heike, the website in the background, is important. Let's go into this a little. Let's start with the audio path, I would say. An audio path is planned in the background and I'm now looking at or pointing to the one on my cell phone, where I've added Ricarda. If you can perhaps give us a little insight, Ricarda, into this audio path, what you can imagine it to be. #00:34:58-8#

Ricarda: #00:35:00-8# Basically, it's an offer to the visitors. In addition to the opportunity to simply walk along the path themselves, to also experience this audio piece, these connections, to walk along it. And these pieces are located at very specific points in this place, which create both historical references and references to the present, to the place between field recordings and historical recordings, between narratives and compositions. So I'm going to leave that a bit open, but it is, so to speak, a way of making the place present and, above all, the past of this place with its history, but also to establish a connection to the present, because of course, knowing that there is also a website that can go much deeper and more detailed into the historical contexts, it should definitely also be a poetic mediation, i.e. also a transfer of knowledge. A place of learning also consists of not telling everything, but also leaving space for those who listen. And listening simply has a very specific quality. It relates to the world, it creates a closeness and yes, for us that is somehow an important moment between didactic mediation, historical facts and the poetic creation of references. #00:36:39-9#

Hermann: #00:36:40-1# Yes, if I can briefly mention the website again, it's just like all the other parts of this memorial site that we want to create, it's not just a website. So this, this, it can or should be able to do more. And Ricarda has already mentioned that. Of course, this is primarily a place to impart knowledge, also for teachers. They can log in there, can get material there, more information, more image material. So even for people who can't be there, it's just as important a place to find these things and get information in several languages. But this archive of memory fragments will also be an integral part of the website. So the opportunity to listen to these stories, these interviews, is also available via the web portal. #00:37:42-0#

[Tobias: #00:37:46-7# Have we forgotten something that you might forget because we're already so involved in the topic? Heinz is already pointing it out. Heinz: A little something. Tobias: Please. #00:37:56-9#

Heinz: #00:37:57-1# So actually it's not a small thing, it's already #00:37:59-4#

Heinz: #00:38:00-4# of importance. Namely this, this pavilion. Ricarda already mentioned it earlier in relation to the audio path. This pavilion is also an offer. We've also positioned it and arranged it in such a way that it's actually easy to walk past. So we haven't put it in anyone's way. We don't force anyone to look at it, but we have tried to design it in such a way that you are drawn in and can actually come to rest between the two walls. And yet, if you take up the offer, you can linger there quite well. You can also meet up there. And in this respect, I think the pavilion is also the link between the audio path, between the memorial site itself, this landscape, between the fact that there is a virtual offer where you can inform yourself in depth and where work continues. So with this pavilion, we intend to show current information and current developments. That there may be parallel developments with other media such as a graphic novel that is created and then exhibited there, with possibly lecture activities that can somehow be represented there or perhaps even always have the pavilion as a goal or starting point. So we see this culture of remembrance less as a monument, where we say we're making a statement and that's how it will be forever, but actually the memorial site itself, and this pavilion in particular, is really just a point in the landscape from which this culture of remembrance has to start again and again and where it has to keep finding its way and where it has to keep coming up with and practising new forms over time. Hermann: I think you've said something very important. The monument always runs the risk of becoming a non-place. Either it is too sacred or too untouchable. The good fortune that we have with this place, in quotation marks, is that it is next to the camp, so as such it doesn't have this genius loci [literally meaning "the spirit of the place"]. But we really didn't want to create a non-place. So it's not a place that is now urging people to be affected. It can, if you deal with it, but you can also walk past it. Of course, we hope that nobody will walk past it in that sense. But not taking it away from the city was almost important to us in a way. #00:40:21-4#

[Outro music]

Tobias: #00:40:41-9# Archivwürdig is a production of the Stadtarchiv Innsbruck and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. #00:40:48-6#

[00:00:00] [Intro music] Tobias: Hello and welcome to the very first episode of Archivwürdig, the podcast of the

[00:00:19] Innsbruck City Archives. In today's premiere episode, I talk to Lukas Morscher,

[00:00:23] the head of the City Archive/City Museum department, about ourselves. Among other things

[00:00:28] about what an archive actually is, what is archived, why something is kept

[00:00:33] and who has access to the documents. Small spoiler alert: Basically

[00:00:38] everyone has access and for free. We also talk about this in general,

[00:00:43] how the administration of the city has changed during Luke's 25 years of service.

[00:00:48] So much for what you can expect, let's get into the episode.

[00:00:52] Lukas, why am I sitting here with you today? I don't know, I often feel like this in my

[00:00:59] circle of acquaintances when I'm asked. And what do you do for a living? Then I say yes,

[00:01:04] nothing. [laughs] It was nice. No, then I say yes, in the city archive and or as an archivist in the city archive at

[00:01:14] the city. And then the first question is always: "What do you need it for?

[00:01:19] or what is a city archive anyway? So to speak, what is there anyway?" Because, yes,

[00:01:24] short, well, let's just say that the general population often has little idea of what is actually

[00:01:28] is collected. And then when I start to tell them what we have there, so to speak, then

[00:01:31] the eyes open wide anyway. Maybe that's why we should start with that,

[00:01:36] what the archive actually is in its original sense and what we then, that is, we directly as a

[00:01:42] city archive, perhaps? Lukas: The task of a city archive is basically to

[00:01:48] that they store the files of the city administration that are no longer needed for day-to-day business

[00:01:54] that are no longer needed for day-to-day business, and to make them available for academic research and data protection

[00:02:02] available for scientific research. Tobias: That's kind of the generic answer [laughs]. No, it's correct. But so,

[00:02:10] that's the process, of course. Lukas: I just took a breath. Tobias: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then let

[00:02:14] I'll let you continue. Lukas: Of course, you have to ask yourself the question first,

[00:02:18] what does town hall mean, what does town hall mean. The town hall or the function of a town hall

[00:02:25] encompasses everything from birth to education, healthcare, sport and culture,

[00:02:32] construction, road traffic and numerous other departments. In other words, it's with us for almost our entire

[00:02:42] life, at least at the beginning and the end. The birth certificate and the death certificate... Tobias: The cemeteries

[00:02:49] as well? Lukas: Cemeteries even beyond that. That's right. So, there's a lot of

[00:02:55] different, diverse things come together and to be able to document this work in the town hall

[00:03:03] or to make it possible to understand what was done in the past, the files are kept in the city archives

[00:03:10] as long as there are still paper files, which tends to be less and less. Tobias: Yes, that,

[00:03:17] which will then pose new problems for us, but we're still kind of... Lukas: That's

[00:03:21] unsolved. Tobias: It's still unresolved. And above all, that would be quite good for the future,

[00:03:27] soon to... Lukas: There is no institution for the digital act, a really long-term

[00:03:34] solution and that should really be developed by the big research institutes and we take over

[00:03:41] that, but a really long-term digital archiving concept like that is, to my

[00:03:48] knowledge, there is currently no such long-term digital archiving concept in sight. Tobias: No, I also believe in the last archive days, so there are always archive days

[00:03:53] or archive, yes archive days. And there it is, it's a big topic, but the Wunderwutzi the

[00:04:00] panacea to solve it is not yet... Lukas [very quietly]: Exactly... Tobias: But we're archiving here now

[00:04:10] in the city archive, we archive much more than just the urban... or the city-produced goods. Lukas: Yes, it's like that,

[00:04:16] that of course what I've described is now the basic function of a city archive. In Innsbruck

[00:04:22] the case is a bit extended, stored, because there is no collection that is specifically Innsbruck's

[00:04:30] history and so, over the years and decades, a

[00:04:37] very lively collecting activity that goes far beyond the classic archive. So

[00:04:47] we collect virtually everything that is capable of documenting the history of the city of Innsbruck.

[00:04:52] That ranges from menus to plastic bags [dialect for bag], but also literature posters and so on. But

[00:05:01] this active collection, which not only includes so-called high art or medieval documents

[00:05:09] should simply reflect the picture of life, the reality of life, and that's what... we try

[00:05:21] to document that. Of course, it's an impossible task to do that across the board,

[00:05:26] but at least partially... Tobias: As best we can, to cover as many areas as possible without... or just, yes,

[00:05:34] we always see it anyway, of course everyone has their own circles somewhere that they draw and from that

[00:05:40] then also brings the things back to us, so to speak. Lukas: Well, we're not actually allowed to

[00:05:45] censorship office, but of course everyone has their own personal references, or rather

[00:05:52] their knowledge accordingly. There are people who have special knowledge about something completely absurd

[00:06:00] like the fire department [Tobias laughs] and others, and others know about, I don't know,

[00:06:05] streetlights. It's impossible to know everything and we regularly see

[00:06:11] in "Innsbruck Remembers" what kind of expertise people have, if I only think of the gentlemen

[00:06:17] of the retired gentlemen from the police who can discuss it,

[00:06:22] when they got which uniform, was it May '53 or October '53

[00:06:31] that's knowledge that we can never attain, of course. We can only partially

[00:06:36] in small islands, in small mosaic pieces and we can only try to do so,

[00:06:43] make a part of the overall picture visible. You just have to be aware that, of course

[00:06:49] only one... really individual pieces of the mosaic. Tobias: Maybe, at that point, let's also briefly

[00:06:56] how this can be found here at all. So first of all, of course, we try,

[00:07:03] everything into a database as far as possible and then also to record it accordingly,

[00:07:11] so if possible, as I said, again with... digitize, which of course with photos

[00:07:16] I'll just say it's easier than maybe... [snorts] I mean with posters it's also possible,

[00:07:21] anything like that... Lukas: Bicycles. Tobias: Yes, bicycles are then [laughs] again what's difficult,

[00:07:25] or generally with all the real things or sculptures, it's always possible, you have to

[00:07:29] just photograph it, but... and findable, and if that's the way it's quasi

[00:07:34] described accordingly, then of course it's possible to find it again at some point. It can be

[00:07:37] of course now, if something is specifically searched for on Maria-Theresien-Straße or something like that and

[00:07:41] then only search with Maria-Theresien-Straße, can of course search for a long time, because of course we also have

[00:07:45] accordingly then many entries for individual properties. The wider the more difficult

[00:07:50] it becomes, I think. Lukas: Yes, of course. Tobias: And the more specific the easier under quotation marks, if

[00:07:56] we have anything at all, it's not always a given. Sometimes the, so I

[00:08:01] can still remember some of the special requests, so really in detail, detail,

[00:08:06] where I have to say, pff, you can only look at it with a wide lens,

[00:08:10] so how do you sort of, because I think that was some angel's head on the front of a house,

[00:08:16] where then somewhere along the line we come to an end, I have to say, with

[00:08:21] how detailed the things are described. Lukas: Yes, it's quite clear that it's a bit

[00:08:28] has to be a cost-benefit analysis on the one hand, but also the specialization,

[00:08:34] that exists and that's obviously a sign of our times, that would go into every [00:08:42] fiber

[00:08:42] fiber of an object, that's impossible. It's about having a solid right, or that,

[00:08:51] what you think is right, a description. Of course 10,000 photos are quickly acquired

[00:08:58] or taken over, 10,000 photos digitized and described and packaged and made accessible

[00:09:06] is actually already done, well, with 10,000 a lot always falls on a life's work, that is,

[00:09:12] you always have a lot of objects that come in in addition to what you can process,

[00:09:18] That's certainly the most frustrating part of it. Tobias: Yes, because work... [clears throat] Work is more or less

[00:09:25] less for three pensions. [Tobias laughs briefly] Lukas: Yes, well, you could, yes, decades of work, if nothing more

[00:09:35] would come in, lies unmarked and waiting to be picked up. But I can already see the

[00:09:42] task of an archivist to salvage things and preserve them for posterity, because in a

[00:09:49] time when there are no more attics and no more huge apartments and no more

[00:09:54] cellars, private collections and photo albums etc. are gradually being given away

[00:10:03] and everything that comes to us is definitely helpful. Tobias: Yes. Maybe,

[00:10:09] because you just mentioned that, maybe that's more of a good topic for

[00:10:13] how things get to us in the first place, I mean, of course, from the city, ideally

[00:10:16] then, when they leave the respective office, they are then of course transferred to us

[00:10:20] transferred to us. Yes, but of course we have many or some private or non-requests,

[00:10:31] but just people who then bring things to us and ask, do you want this?

[00:10:36] otherwise I'll throw it away and then, of course, there's always something to look at,

[00:10:41] I'll say now, we can take it anyway, but then we just have to look at what... and there

[00:10:47] we're kind of back, that would also be appropriate for our podcast title, whether that's even

[00:10:51] worth archiving in that sense. Because, of course, that's not everything that comes to us for the

[00:10:56] long-term archiving, that's also the magic word long-term archiving, but not really, because

[00:10:59] Archiving, is archiving, whether that really finds a place with us. Lukas: Well, of course it is,

[00:11:05] that an object that comes into consideration for us must of course have a connection to Innsbruck

[00:11:10] and should... Tobias: Or just a little bit around, let's say a little bit around, but...

[00:11:14] Lukas: So to speak, what you can do from Innsbruck on foot or by bike,

[00:11:20] that's certainly a basic requirement, of course we wouldn't, I don't know,

[00:11:25] 4x4 large object, meter-sized object or something, there are already considerations or vehicles

[00:11:33] or something. Tobias: Yes, the really big things or things that are simply difficult to move.

[00:11:39] Lukas: Yes, that's just not possible. But basically we have the advantage over the private collector

[00:11:44] the huge advantage that we'll exist forever, we hope. Tobias: I hope so [laughs] too. At least

[00:11:52] at least until I retire. Lukas: No, but the point is, everyone knows some collectors,

[00:12:00] who, in all their admirable enthusiasm for a subject, almost never have successors.

[00:12:09] Whether it's in the family or in the environment, there are very rarely successors and then... some collectors

[00:12:16] also have a certain tyrannical streak when it comes to the family and annoy the family for decades

[00:12:22] and invest all the money in the collection and just can't take it with them posthumously [lat. after death],

[00:12:28] only rarely. And... Tobias: I hope my father isn't listening right now, he's falling into this squint a bit.

[00:12:36] Lukas: Yes, but even he will realize at some point that he can't take it with him and then ask

[00:12:42] a lot of people ask themselves, what do we do with it? We have a friendly relationship with many collectors anyway

[00:12:47] exchange and so of course a lot of stuff comes to us that is more or less organized and

[00:12:55] exciting and good. That's one part, so the Sommer collection was something like that, the Kreuz collection was

[00:13:01] something like that and so on. Tobias: And above all, the advantage is often that this, this collection, yes

[00:13:07] really encompasses it completely, because if we get the things too sporadically, that's of course not so good for

[00:13:13] us, I mean it's OK of course, but of course it's always an advantage if you have a collected

[00:13:17] collection of that. Lukas: Yes, of course, [Tobias clears his throat] but the criteria according to which a private collector selects his

[00:13:25] collection or catalogs it or doesn't catalog it are not necessarily congruent

[00:13:31] with what we do. But basically, of course, a collection of 10,000 postcards is

[00:13:36] more interesting than 10 individual postcards, that's for sure. But that is certainly one of the main sources

[00:13:43] and then, of course, apartment clearances are something we also like to do, but of course also

[00:13:49] buying specifically on the market, so auction houses or similar and what is also very helpful is that

[00:13:58] we have several, I say sympathizers, who go to flea markets for us and [Tobias clears his throat]

[00:14:08] buy stuff and then give it to us, or if it's other stuff,

[00:14:14] or simply pass it on to us. That's an important source because none of us have the time

[00:14:20] to go to every flea market every week, that's not possible. And so, I think, all in all

[00:14:28] quite a good density of materials that are outside of the classic archive function

[00:14:34] and are also loved and lived and cared for. It is certainly the salt in the archival

[00:14:42] soup, because despite all the reverence for building records, it's so incredibly exciting

[00:14:48] the stuff isn't that exciting in the long run, but photos or similar documents are of course

[00:14:54] much more appealing. You can see in "Innsbruck Remembers" that we're not alone,

[00:15:00] but that an incredible number of people also enjoy it and that's very nice.

[00:15:07] Tobias: Yes. Now, of course, we've had quite a lot that we collect, maybe we'll go to the

[00:15:14] just briefly on those, because that can be answered relatively quickly and I'm going to take on the role of the

[00:15:19] the one in the know, which is relatively easy for me. [laughs] But of course that's also something that

[00:15:27] also strikes me, especially during the "Long Night" later on, when we talk about how

[00:15:31] are we allowed to look at things at all or who is allowed to look at things at all and how, whereby who is

[00:15:38] actually relatively easy to clarify, because everyone is allowed to... Lukar: Anyone, if not the

[00:15:44] data protection speaks against it. Tobias: Exactly. Lukas: So the protection of personal data, so you think

[00:15:49] of health records, for example. Tobias: Personnel files. Lukas: Personal files and things like that, of course they're taboo,

[00:15:56] that's precisely regulated by law, otherwise every object is available to everyone and everyone can access it

[00:16:05] see everything. Of course, some of it is indexed in the database or in several databases

[00:16:10] indexed, but it is also, you can also get every object a medieval document

[00:16:17] or something like that, even if it is. It's just that not everything is always at hand, because in the

[00:16:23] Badgasse and Feldstraße are a long way apart, the two warehouses, but basically everything is available

[00:16:29] available for inspection and I think that's very important. Tobias: You can also do your own research

[00:16:35] from below. Tobias: That's also an advantage for us. Lukas: You can also do your own research under supervision. That's very helpful. No, so I think,

[00:16:42] you try to minimize... Tobias: Barriers. Lukas: To put barriers in the way, quite the opposite. Certainly

[00:16:50] we're still behind schedule when it comes to putting the data online, but that's simply and

[00:16:57] simply because of a lack of resources, but one day it will be possible.

[00:17:03] And so you just have to research on site, but I think the accessibility and also the

[00:17:09] depth of description that is already available for some objects is quite remarkable. Of course

[00:17:17] it's always a question of weighing up how many human resources we have and how many objects we have. So

[00:17:24] that's certainly a very difficult balancing act. And then, if possible, every district should be covered

[00:17:32] be covered. There should be every... i don't know, every main hobby of the people of Innsbruck, from skiing to ski touring to paragliding,

[00:17:39] about music. Tobias: National sport, soccer. Lukas: Football [laughing] Yes, there used to be. So it should also be covered

[00:17:47] and just when you think how many soccer clubs there are and have been, who alone can do that?

[00:17:53] almost an area for one [Tobias clears his throat] person. So you just have to look,

[00:18:00] what works and what doesn't. Or what interests people have from the front

[00:18:05] and are, I don't know, in the fire department, in music or somewhere else. That is of course

[00:18:11] very, very helpful and yet it always remains just individual pieces of the mosaic of a

[00:18:16] whole picture. Tobias: Yes. Yes, because what we, what I also noticed, especially, really very strongly with

[00:18:24] the "Long Night", where people are already walking through the city with their tickets,

[00:18:28] where they can get in everywhere and with us, we're also open, logically during the "Long Night"

[00:18:33] Night". And then people are actually amazed at all the things we have and there's

[00:18:38] kind of like an inhibition threshold, the door to the archive and because we are of course a

[00:18:42] a bit hidden in Badgasse, but especially during the "Long Night" a lot of people do come in

[00:18:46] research, then they find out what we have. They do manage to

[00:18:50] usually don't make it to the archive a second time [laughs], but I still find it interesting. We

[00:18:56] then somewhere along the line, aha, that aha effect comes through. Lukas: Yes, but if you, if you think

[00:19:01] think about it, the, how are archives or archivists in these unspeakable Hollywood movies... Tobias: Yeah.

[00:19:09] ...they're always cranky old men with a long beard and they're in

[00:19:18] live in some fantasy world and... Tobias: Everything is dusty. Everything is... Lukas: Everything is dusty. Tobias: And [unintelligible] everywhere.

[00:19:25] No system, so... Lukas: These stupid clichés that are mainly transported by Hollywood

[00:19:33] are also lacking in representation, exactly, how should I put it, image-building.

[00:19:41] And since not everyone has a pronounced historical interest or whatnot, people just believe these

[00:19:49] representations and are then quite surprised when it turns out to be a bit different in reality

[00:19:53] reality looks a bit different. You shouldn't really be surprised at all. It's a shame that

[00:20:02] it's a shame that people don't pay more attention to their own past or the traces

[00:20:08] of their family or the house where they live. But basically it's

[00:20:15] interesting that the image is a dusty one and how I started in the city archive

[00:20:23] I was in my late 20s [laughs]

[00:20:25] Tobias: Now you're in your late 30s [laughs] Lukas: Now I'm old, gray and glatzert [dialect for bald].

[00:20:31] Yes, but that's quite oppressive. But this image is probably from movies and television.

[00:20:40] Tobias: It's very strong.

[00:20:42] Ah. Perhaps it should also be said that, of course, we don't have any, so normally there are no costs for a

[00:20:49] Archive visit. Different now perhaps if, for printing and where do we have prices? Image rights, if for publications,

[00:20:58] for commercial purposes something like that, but that should perhaps also be made clear or

[00:21:02] be strongly stated that it is actually a free service from the city.

[00:21:06] Lukas: It's a service provided by the administration to the taxpayer. It costs nothing except

[00:21:11] time and unless you make some commercial use of a photo on a coffee mug.

[00:21:20] Tobias: Lukas, I can actually ask you that now, after 20 years of... No,

[00:21:27] You've been in charge for... Lukas: 25. Tobias: 25 already?

[00:21:29] Lukas: I'm in my 25th year.

[00:21:31] Tobias: Yes, because I think it, [laughs] the change in the archive as an institution has to happen,

[00:21:39] maybe not all the time, but it must have changed significantly to now, because I mean,

[00:21:45] I can... been here for, yeah, two years on the job or what.

[00:21:49] Lukas: Administration as such has changed immeasurably. I mean 25 years are

[00:21:57] a long time, of course, and I can still remember that all these

[00:22:05] administrative processes that today go back and forth quickly in seconds as e-mails used to be

[00:22:11] everything was kept in handwritten lists, i.e. vacation lists, budget lists,

[00:22:19] expense lists. There was a carbon copy and this carbon paper is one

[00:22:24] remained on site, the original was carried up by the official messenger. Then the boss

[00:22:31] and the next boss put a tick [dialect for check mark] on it and then at some point it was approved

[00:22:36] and then it came back again. Those were processes that you can't imagine today

[00:22:40] can no longer imagine how slow and contemplative it was, i.e. in the entire

[00:22:48] administration. Of course, it also applies to requests, a letter came in and that was

[00:22:53] then read it and then thought about it and then three days later

[00:22:58] then you put things together and then you responded and you were remarkably quick,

[00:23:04] if you wrote a letter back after a week. Today, it can happen that you have to

[00:23:09] three or four hours after a request, you'll get a second email asking why you haven't been contacted yet

[00:23:14] answered, which I always find remarkably rude. Not

[00:23:21] only administration has changed, so not only in the technology and in the speed of handling

[00:23:28] has changed, the way we deal with it has certainly changed a lot too. Tobias: Like

[00:23:34] mean the manners? Lukas: Well, there is no "Dear Mr. Senate Councillor"

[00:23:39] or there are no more farewell phrases, but it's "LG" and "BG", which I think is a good thing

[00:23:45] which annoys me to no end. Tobias: What "BG"? Bbbb... Ah best regards. Yes. Lukas: I also find it a

[00:23:53] real expression of non-appreciation that you don't take the time to formulate a

[00:23:57] to formulate a big one, but yes, that's just the way it is and if it's just a text module, but

[00:24:04] please. Of course, this has also reduced thresholds and I welcome this in principle

[00:24:09] in all forms, of course, that it has become more casual and less complicated, but it is

[00:24:15] really no stone has been left unturned in these 25 years. For the archive itself,

[00:24:22] apart from issues like the electronic file, which is a very big and very difficult

[00:24:32] chapter, the focus of the collection has certainly shifted. In the past, individual

[00:24:40] documents or paintings were bought that were representative, so to speak

[00:24:45] and opulent and were expensive. And in the last few decades, we've tried to buy a lot of everyday objects

[00:24:55] tried to collect. That's not a judgment and it's not better or worse,

[00:25:00] it's just different. There will soon be a life after me and then there will be someone,

[00:25:09] who will have a different focus. I don't think that's a bad thing either, that there will then be a

[00:25:16] good average, so to speak. When I started, there were three of us. Tobias: Three of us? Lukas: Three of us. Mrs. Justitsch,

[00:25:24] Dr. Wuritschka and me. It wasn't an easy start, I have to say. Tobias: But it was... Before you

[00:25:34] was Franz-Heinz Hye, yes? Lukas: Yes. Tobias: Is that... But you were already under... so you were already like him, or are you? Uh-huh. Lukas: That was half a year

[00:25:43] Interregnum [Latin for interregnum] [Tobias in the background: Aha] and then I came as a 28-year-old bourgeois at the time and of course...

[00:25:49] Tobias: An Upper Austrian to boot? Lukas: And a foreigner at that. Tobias: Who hasn't heard it yet! Lukas: I don't have anyone in the

[00:25:55] City Hall who knew the mechanisms, including things like what is an official channel, what is a department,

[00:26:02] what is an office, what is a department. I had no idea. And the two employees have

[00:26:12] naturally found it difficult at the beginning to let a young boy say anything to them. And

[00:26:17] if you tell someone that you don't do it like that anymore, but differently, then indirectly it also means,

[00:26:24] you've been doing it the wrong way for 20, 25 years, which it's not. But still, of course

[00:26:31] perceived that way. But I think we've somehow respectfully... Tobias: Accommodated each other. Lukas: Accommodating. It was certainly for

[00:26:41] not easy for all sides. It also has great advantages and great disadvantages far away from the

[00:26:47] town hall. But it's safe, so at the beginning it was perhaps also good that I didn't know what

[00:26:55] was coming. Tobias: Do you think you would have made a different decision? Or... It's now...

[00:27:00] Lukas: It's hard to say what else... I'm still amazed today at the enormous trust that the former

[00:27:08] Mayor van Staa put in me, because he said you'll do it. And yes,

[00:27:14] that was quite remarkable. And I don't know [laughs], I can't judge whether what he expected

[00:27:23] expected [both laugh] to happen or not. I can't... he would have to say that. But it was

[00:27:30] already the first years were difficult. Then it was... the room conditions were quite desolate. So there was mold infestation

[00:27:38] in the basement, very extensive. Everything was technically up to 1969 with a few adaptations in

[00:27:50] the 80s. So there was a lot of basic work to be done. And with three people, of course

[00:27:57] not that easy. And it's been a long build-up process. Or is it always

[00:28:06] to get more staff, more financial resources, more technical equipment

[00:28:12] equipment. Tobias: Because it all costs money, of course. Lukas: It all costs money. It's not all one or most

[00:28:18] Things are not one-off expenses, but ongoing. And of course, they're also increasing, and then of course there's no money left under the

[00:28:25] The bottom line is always the question of what you need it for. The topic comes up once every few years.

[00:28:31] We don't need it that much, but it's all nonsense. Tobias: Do we really need it? Can't we do less? Lukas: Exactly,

[00:28:37] the act. That's finished anyway. The house is standing now. Why do you still need the building file? These are

[00:28:44] all questions that you have to ask yourself again and again. Due to the Tyrolean Archive Act

[00:28:52] it is at least anchored that there has to be an archive. And yet, of course, it's always

[00:28:57] a challenge to say that you need money to continue collecting and working.

[00:29:05] At the moment it's also very well secured from a political point of view and it's not really a problem

[00:29:12] question, but other times may come and then you'll have to look at the situation again

[00:29:17] raison d'être and yes, I think it will work, but it's already an ongoing

[00:29:24] challenge. Tobias: And what you have to do now while you're still thinking about what I've just

[00:29:30] recently been asked again, has also happened before through an archive guest during the research

[00:29:35] happened. He then also asked me whether we actually have the possibility. For him it was the

[00:29:40] case that he was looking for paintings from various, I think it was always

[00:29:47] Innsbruckers. And then asked whether there was also the possibility of buying them again, so to speak

[00:29:51] for sale again. Then I thought to myself, okay, no, maybe you should say that again. Because I am

[00:29:56] I was also asked again privately how I did a tour there in Feldstrasse,

[00:29:59] whether we gave something away again. I say no, not really. Well, unless it comes back to an office,

[00:30:06] but then that's more of a loan than a return. Lukas: Yes, with the art collections and with

[00:30:12] the file collections and all the others, it's very clear that only digital copies go out.

[00:30:20] Nothing is categorically sold anyway. Although there are in a lower provincial capital...

[00:30:26] Tobias laughing: Shall we broach the subject? Lukas: Eh yes. With a fortress on top, they sell art stocks and buy art. That's from my

[00:30:40] personal view, that's pretty much the most actionist and short-sighted thing you can do. And I

[00:30:48] hope they don't ruin too much of a systematic collection that's there. But

[00:30:55] it's even been decided by the Municipal councilthat nothing can go outside

[00:31:01] is allowed to go out. There's no need to talk about the files at all, but not about the works of art either.

[00:31:07] Tobias: Except of course for other exhibitions. There is already the possibility of using things

[00:31:11] for an exhibition. We've just... Lukas: Yes, traffic is of course possible. That's also ...

[00:31:16] Tobias: Business practice. Lukas: Also desired. We also want to show our objects if they fit somewhere else

[00:31:24] fit somewhere else. For example, we now have an exhibition at the Landesmuseum about the restorers,

[00:31:31] we've also lent out some objects about the working restorers. We have ...

[00:31:37] Tobias: Eh, from Klammer, the ski suit, right? Lukas: Yes, and other things too. Tobias: Yes, yes. Eh also quite

[00:31:43] famous, was also the example where... i think it was the Maximilian year, wasn't it? Where in New York at the MoMA,

[00:31:51] or was that? Lukas: Since the Museum im Goldenen Dachl has also been with us for a few years

[00:31:57] the objects from the Golden Roof and the reliefs from there,

[00:32:01] the original reliefs from the Golden Roof are highly coveted objects on loan, so they were in New York.

[00:32:08] And now they are, they are in Speyer, then they were in the Belvedere. But now we have a

[00:32:15] political decision that only certain reliefs are still eligible and the others

[00:32:22] no longer. Tobias: Who decides that... So the decision then remains whether they are awarded

[00:32:27] with you, or is that also politically, so to speak, in the, be it municipalities, like or City Senate,

[00:32:35] or something like that? Lukas: Basically, the ability to borrow an object is normal,

[00:32:42] I'll say under quotation marks for normal objects, it's up to me and I decide,

[00:32:46] whether the object has the basic, how should I put it, whether we can use it as a basic

[00:32:56] want to borrow an object. Then there is the aspect of restoration and conservation

[00:33:03] conservation, I mean, that's less of a problem with a photograph, for example,

[00:33:09] than with the reliefs of the Golden Roof. The Monuments Office is also involved in the decision, whereby an object

[00:33:15] may be taken abroad, export licenses are required and so on.

[00:33:20] That's relatively complicated. It's mainly an issue with works of art, otherwise I decide

[00:33:28] that and often consult with the political department responsible to see if it's in the interests of the city

[00:33:37] is in the interests of the city or not, but these are usually relatively clear decisions that can be [00:33:43] finalized quite quickly

[00:33:43] can be clarified quite quickly. So I don't really see much reason to withhold properties unless they are

[00:33:51] endangered. Tobias: Because of transportation [unintelligible]. That's clear. Lukas: But otherwise, of course, we're happy,

[00:33:59] we have between 10 and 30 loan requests a year, something like that. So off the top of my head

[00:34:06] Speyer. I think Kitzbühel has something. Tobias: Exactly, there's the fire department [unintelligible] Lukas: Bolzano, Trento,

[00:34:12] are now constantly at the Landesmuseum. Tobias: There are often several at the Landesmuseum,

[00:34:18] not only in the provincial museum itself, but in the folk art. Lukas: Yes, so there are, and that's also,

[00:34:25] Schloss Ambras is also a permanent borrower for special exhibitions.

[00:34:30] I also think it's very important to maintain a friendly and collegial exchange.

[00:34:36] That's certainly something that has improved a lot in recent years, which I'm very pleased about

[00:34:42] I'm very pleased that you can work with the Landesmuseum, the Landesarchiv and the local museums,

[00:34:49] and the archives all over Austria, which I'm very pleased about

[00:34:56] and collegial contact. So it can also happen that Christoph Heydacher and I have a [00:35:04] beer together

[00:35:04] sitting together over a beer, at night. Tobias: [takes a startled breath] For God's sake! Lukas: Yes, over one. [Tobias laughs] Lukas: And you can talk things over and

[00:35:13] can exchange ideas. You can see it now at our residency exhibition. They're actually very,

[00:35:19] very valuable highlights from all the collections there. We had the "Cranach painting" from Mariahilf

[00:35:28] last year, for a month. So these are objects that are very valuable,

[00:35:35] and there has to be a trust that goes beyond the technical aspects to get such things.

[00:35:42] I'm happy about that and it's also nice to see that people are exchanging ideas and also objects that

[00:35:50] we exchange with the Landesmuseum, for example if we have several posters, then we always get

[00:35:56] the Landesmuseum always gets a copy and vice versa, and the same goes for specialist literature. That's a

[00:36:03] very friendly, informal exchange, which I really appreciate and also professionally, when you

[00:36:10] you're not familiar with something or you're sure that you can discuss it. Tobias: Yes, it's also always

[00:36:15] an advantage. Lukas: But it wasn't always like that. Tobias: Yes. I think so. But I have to say that's also something that I really appreciate,

[00:36:22] that I can always turn to whoever I need to or pass it on,

[00:36:26] because it's not a given in and of itself. Especially when I think of previous employment relationships

[00:36:32] in other areas and so on. It's always perceived as a burden. Lukas: Yes, and also

[00:36:37] I mean now the residence exhibition is Gertraud Zeindl, who used to be with us, now in the

[00:36:41] Landesarchiv for many years. Tobias: Which will also be featured in an episode anyway. Lukas: Who will also be in an episode...

[00:36:45] Tobias: [laughing] Which I have committed to, so to speak. Lukas: Prejudiced became a contribution. Has now made the show

[00:36:51] made, the next exhibition about the Brennbau is a collaboration with the Landesmuseum, so the

[00:36:58] I think that's very nice and very important and not a matter of course and yes, that's actually

[00:37:05] very nice. Tobias: And that's how it should actually be, using these synergies in order to create something clever on

[00:37:11] to get something clever off the ground. Lukas: Another very important point is our publications.

[00:37:18] Tobias: Oh yes, that's right, we haven't mentioned that either. Lukas: There is one, since the 50s, there was one

[00:37:26] series of publications that were originally 40-page booklets and then in the time of

[00:37:33] started by Monika Fritz, I think, but expanded mainly under Franz-Heinz Hye, a

[00:37:43] publication series that now comprises almost 80 volumes. That's quite a lot for a small archive

[00:37:52] quite a decent series. The topics on the history of Innsbruck and its surroundings

[00:38:00] cover a wide range of topics from aviation to the Tyrolean workers' bakery, and now

[00:38:10] a volume on the sewer system. Two years ago there was a volume about the city maps, about

[00:38:16] the historical ones. Now there's a volume about the city views in copper and steel engravings

[00:38:23] was also about 20th century social clubs. Tobia: I've heard that we still have

[00:38:30] three very interesting volumes about everyday life, everyday life in Innsbruck through the years.

[00:38:35] [Tobias clears his throat] Remind me again Lukas Moscher, who the author was. [laughs] I think his name is Lukas Moscher too,

[00:38:44] Is he possibly related to you? Lukas: I can't imagine. Tobias: No, I don't think so either. Lukas: These volumes, the everyday life volumes

[00:38:51] were a lot of fun to make. They also went down really well with people,

[00:38:58] that makes me happy. So even if you're not very vain, it always makes you happy when you're somewhere

[00:39:05] you see your own book on a shelf when you're visiting somewhere, then people have either

[00:39:12] received the book as a gift or spent their own money on it. That makes you happy. I also do it for a

[00:39:20] bookshop for a few years now, a historical calendar. And you see it relatively

[00:39:26] often hanging somewhere. That's fun and enjoyable. But the publication series as

[00:39:33] as such is an important form, although unfortunately I have to realize that the sales figures

[00:39:41] are becoming alarmingly lower because people are spending more time on the Internet than reading books.

[00:39:48] Books cost money, the internet supposedly doesn't. Tobias: Electricity at least, or the cell phone contract. Lukas: We do

[00:39:56] ourselves contemporary competition with "Innsbrucker erinnert". Tobias: [laughing] And with this format, we're also kind of doing what we record

[00:40:01] Lukas: And with this format, which almost reaches Hollywood dimensions. [Tobias laughs] Lukas: I am

[00:40:08] written publications are very important to me, although it does give me pause for thought that the sales figures

[00:40:18] are already very much on the decline. And this will certainly be critically scrutinized in the coming years

[00:40:23] if it continues like this. How much longer can you [laughs] expect the taxpayer to pay that?

[00:40:31] or on the other hand. It's also increasingly difficult to pay an author or an

[00:40:36] author, you've written such a great thesis on a topic, why don't you write a book?

[00:40:42] out of it, and if very few copies are sold, you can't really do anything about young people

[00:40:49] can always be expected to invest a year's time if 100 or 200 copies are sold.

[00:40:55] You have to keep an eye on that, it will certainly be a difficult decision over the next few years.

[00:41:01] We're trying to reach new layers with advertising now, but I'm not sure,

[00:41:08] whether the series will still exist in this form in a few years' time. Tobias: The future always seems to be

[00:41:15] more digital and less and less analog. Whether it's the files, the publications,

[00:41:20] because I also think the university, I think the University of Vienna is doing it now

[00:41:24] very increasingly that they only publish more or many things, I think, only online

[00:41:28] only publish online. So really only as PDFs online, so to speak, [unintelligible] which, in my opinion

[00:41:34] actually brings more disadvantages than advantages, but I mean, that's for us

[00:41:39] also somewhere... Lukas: Yes, you just have to ask yourself the question, is a book on local history still up to date?

[00:41:47] So I don't know, a book about the history of Innsbruck's Inn bridges, is that still up to date?

[00:41:58] to write a book about it, or is it five "Innsbruck remembers" articles or a PDF?

[00:42:06] that you put online and hope that someone will read it. It's not a phenomenon that's in our hands,

[00:42:13] but can be seen everywhere. A lot of smaller city archives have the

[00:42:19] publication series years ago. Only the archives in

[00:42:26] state capitals, publication series and we are certainly by far the best in Austria

[00:42:32] most eager when it comes to publishing volumes. That's very nice, but as I said,

[00:42:38] that's a point that will have to be observed very closely, how long this form of

[00:42:45] form of publication can be continued. Unless there is a change and people start buying again

[00:42:53] more books again. I don't know, but we could also be a little inspiration. Tobias: That is,

[00:42:58] what are we giving up to our listeners? Lukas: Both of them. Tobias: Yes, both of them. Both for the future with or what they

[00:43:05] take away from our episode now, for this first episode. First of all, maybe that they would like to

[00:43:11] come and see us at any time. Lukas: That's certainly the most important point, so whoever is interested in us, in

[00:43:16] history, for houses, for people, for clubs or something like that... Tobias: Even if it's just historical

[00:43:21] views. Lukas: Or nice [dialect for beautiful] old photos, just drop by. We

[00:43:27] don't bite, on the contrary, we're happy when you come. We are open, we don't charge

[00:43:32] admission, we're happy to help with research. That's not an issue at all. We also have all the

[00:43:38] necessary technical equipment for scanning and so on, which is available free of charge.

[00:43:43] That's one part. The second part is that we have a slow but growing digital

[00:43:51] platform on our municipal homepage. We have all the city's address books online.

[00:43:57] We have various other documents that we are gradually expanding online,

[00:44:03] for example 9000 posters, digitally online, just as a small thing. Then of course we have

[00:44:11] with "Innsbruck remembers", if you don't know it, be sure to take a look, a really daily

[00:44:16] growing platform that is accessed incredibly often. So it has to reflect the spirit of the times

[00:44:24] and also be quite nice, I suppose. [Tobias laughs] Tobias: Maybe not always completely uncontroversial either.

[00:44:31] No but, uncontroversial is perhaps a bit too close to too strong... Lukas: But the discussion is nothing,

[00:44:36] is nothing bad. Quite the opposite. So it shouldn't, it shouldn't be based on party politics

[00:44:42] or topics like that, but it doesn't anyway. But the comments are mostly from

[00:44:49] remarkable professional quality and sometimes it's just nice pictures or funny stories.

[00:44:56] So I think that's also a phenomenon of time, of course. So how long this platform has been in

[00:45:03] how long this platform will keep up with the times, I don't know. But it will also have an expiration date,

[00:45:09] one day. Tobias: Let's see. Lukas: But at the moment it's obviously a form that's very well received.

[00:45:18] The access numbers are still increasing and are exorbitantly high. And of course it's a lot of

[00:45:25] work and also ties up staff and also prevents work being done in other places. That's quite clear.

[00:45:33] But I think it's so important at the moment, even in difficult times, to have a bit of variety

[00:45:43] or to offer virtual walks, that I'm quite adamant that we should

[00:45:50] post four new photos every day. And it's already happened to me that at 11 p.m

[00:45:58] that it's my turn for a post and I don't have anything yet. And then you're glad,

[00:46:03] if it works out before midnight. [Tobias laughs] But I realize that it's a burden for the staff,

[00:46:10] but I think it's very, very important and should also save the taxpayer a bit of money

[00:46:15] pleasure for the taxpayer. Otherwise, yes, maybe it's also important to think that the cliché,

[00:46:22] that you see in the movies, the archive of dusty rooms with old men inside, is not true.

[00:46:31] Well, it is for me, but not otherwise. Tobias: What's dusty about you? [Lukas: We are paid by the taxpayer

[00:46:41] and we're all the happier when we can give the taxpayer a service in return

[00:46:47] to the taxpayer. And the best way to do that today is if someone comes by, calls, emails and we will

[00:46:55] try to help or answer as quickly and as well as we can.

[00:47:01] Tobias: Above all, what I've also noticed is that when someone comes by, it's enriching for us,

[00:47:06] because we also learn things that we can't extract from documents, even things about everyday history

[00:47:12] but then we record them somewhere. That's what I find so interesting about the whole profession,

[00:47:17] because through your work you actually learn more yourself. Even if you work for

[00:47:22] answering inquiries, you have to go out and look for yourself or if someone is there, so to speak, then

[00:47:28] also tells a story from the family, then a lot comes across.

[00:47:33] Lukas: Well, I haven't walked out the door once in 25 years without learning something new

[00:47:39] without having learned something. So that's certainly one of the really appealing aspects of the job, that you learn something every

[00:47:46] you see something new every day, learn, understand, recognize connections between families or people, what

[00:47:53] and understands. And that's actually something extremely appealing, that you constantly recognize something new

[00:48:03] recognizes. What's stupid, of course, is that when you're no longer there one day, that of course with every

[00:48:09] person who leaves, a lot of knowledge and expertise goes with them. That's a big problem. Yes,

[00:48:17] I don't know the solution to that either, but I think that's especially true for something that's so constructive

[00:48:26] like in our business, that a person who leaves after 10, 20 years and says, from tomorrow I'm

[00:48:32] retiree, there's an insane amount that breaks away that takes years to work through.

[00:48:38] But it's somehow... there hasn't really been a way of preserving knowledge yet. There is

[00:48:45] stupidly, there isn't. But yeah, let's see. Tobias: Good. We're already relatively advanced in time anyway.

[00:48:54] That means I'll say again, thanks, we'll hear them again in another episode anyway,

[00:48:59] in the next one even. And like I said, more coming over. Come see us,

[00:49:04] it always pays off, I have to say. There's always something to look at. Lukas: Yes, definitely that. Tobias: It's like a walk in the park.

[00:49:10] Tobias: [laughing] That means there's always something to see.

[00:49:12] [Outro music]

[00:00:00] [Intro music] Tobias: Hello and welcome to the second episode of Archivwürdig, the podcast of the

[00:00:18] Innsbruck City Archive. In today's episode, I talk to Lukas once again

[00:00:22] Morscher, the head of the City Archive/City Museum department. After we talked in the previous episode about

[00:00:27] the city archive itself in the previous episode, we now talk about the day-to-day tasks

[00:00:31] of an archivist. These include processing inquiries,

[00:00:36] indexing archive material or writing articles. Lukas also gives us

[00:00:41] insights into his numerous activities and describes how his beginnings in the archive

[00:00:46] and how the department has developed over the years. All this and more awaits

[00:00:51] you and so let's get into the episode. Lukas, thank you for agreeing to do an episode

[00:00:58] with me. In the first episode, we covered large parts of the archive itself, so to speak

[00:01:06] covered what you can find in the archive, which is already a little bit anticipated anyway, what the work

[00:01:12] are in an archive or in our archive actually. And perhaps that we are now really

[00:01:17] go into more detail about the work steps, although our two working days probably overlap anyway

[00:01:26] probably very different, because in the managerial function, of course, you have a very

[00:01:31] other, let's say, completely different working groups than the quasi ordinary

[00:01:39] archive hunchback that I am. Lukas: Yes, hovering, hovering, [laughter] hovering. I can do that

[00:01:47] smiling gently. No, of course it's clear that there's a lot of administrative work. Tobias: I

[00:01:53] think we can get that out of the way right up front... So I think internal inquiries is, I think

[00:01:57] I think that's quite a lot of what we deal with on a daily basis, but I would

[00:02:03] say the most common. Most of it I think is difficult to say, but always... Lukas: So

[00:02:10] I think that there are quite a lot of internal magistrate inquiries, especially in the

[00:02:16] Construction, social affairs, Tobias: Real estate Lukas: Real estate and so on, there's quite a lot.

[00:02:24] But mostly, the people who can do it can dig up the files and that's a relatively

[00:02:31] linear process, which is now perhaps more of a science with the youth welfare files

[00:02:38] has become more of a science. But other than that, it's relatively straightforward. Inquiries, I don't know about an

[00:02:45] artist who was in Innsbruck in the 17th century, in terms of numbers that's

[00:02:51] not that many, but of course the time it takes to answer them is

[00:02:55] much longer. It... I think it's split up, which makes it quite pleasant

[00:03:01] makes it quite pleasant. Answering inquiries is one part, but of course new incoming

[00:03:09] material or looking at offers. So part of the appeal of this job is

[00:03:17] is also the infinite variety of facets, whether it's any indication that in

[00:03:25] there's something interesting in some auction, I don't even get to it myself. So on duty

[00:03:30] anyway, looking at auction catalogs. Tobias: We get them sent to us regularly [unintelligible]

[00:03:36] Lukas: Yes, yes. But thank God we also have sympathizers who just say,

[00:03:41] you've already seen this, you've already seen that, that helps too. But even if someone

[00:03:47] either brings something, a photo collection from grandpa who has passed away or wants to sell something

[00:03:55] want to sell something, sifting through these things is very appealing, but of course it's also very responsible.

[00:04:02] You spend the taxpayer's money, but on the other hand you want the person who might have

[00:04:09] ignorant, not to treat them badly either. That's always a trade-off, but most of the time

[00:04:16] then you also come to... Tobias: On a green branch. Lukas: On a green branch, yes. So if someone comes with the wrong ideas

[00:04:25] and then he has to take it back, that happens very rarely but it does happen.

[00:04:31] But this part is certainly something that requires a lot of experience. I have... During my studies I did

[00:04:39] worked for ten years in retail, in the art, antiques and antiquarian book trade.

[00:04:45] I know all the facets of people who want to sell things. And yes, you have to

[00:04:52] you just have to be fair to people, especially the taxpayer.

[00:04:57] Tobias: Then I would say, let's take the case right now, so to speak, now we're taking over

[00:05:03] we, let it be a photo album, let's take over or buy, depending on the case, a photo album

[00:05:10] from a private person, an auction house is not particularly tragic in this case,

[00:05:15] but you can do that later on. We have that there now, which means we're going

[00:05:24] now into the processing. That means... we, of course, there's always the big issue of provenance [lat. origin]. It's always

[00:05:31] to clarify, that is of course in times of you always hear it in the media with the big

[00:05:35] things with paintings from the Nazi... ehm stolen things. That's rather less with us now

[00:05:41] the case, or how is that... Are you aware of any cases? No? Lukas: I'm not aware of any now. Tobias: That means,

[00:05:47] we have the photo album there now and we're going to go to work, we'll probably

[00:05:52] either try to digitize it as a first step, if it's possible. Lukas: I

[00:05:56] would start one step before. So we took it over because it has an Innsbruck-

[00:06:01] reference. Tobias: That's right. Lukas: That's, I'll say, the first step. Either the people

[00:06:06] are in Innsbruck, from Innsbruck important or less important or the motives are,

[00:06:13] in some connection with Innsbruck, could also be, for example, with the university or something like that

[00:06:18] are. That's one part of the story. The other part of the story is ever... so small

[00:06:25] a photo album, where it's about small quantities, we'll probably digitize ourselves.

[00:06:31] Larger collections will be digitized externally by trusted digitization partners.

[00:06:39] Tobias: Although, as I said, that doesn't always, well, it can go in lockstep, then the digitization

[00:06:45] sometimes happens either in advance or after the fact, it also depends,

[00:06:49] where, how it happens. Lukas: That depends. But the aim is to have a digitized version at some point

[00:06:54] which can then be automatically entered into the system or not, depending on the number. But

[00:07:00] have to be discussed, described and researched. So if they are now, I don't know,

[00:07:09] Viktor Franz Hess, then you also have to look up the biographical data or things like that.

[00:07:14] And then there's always the question of how much detail you go into in a description.

[00:07:20] How much research effort do you put in or how much do you write so that the object can be found,

[00:07:29] when someone is researching Viktor Franz Hess. It's a difficult balancing act when you're looking for

[00:07:37] a photo of Landhausplatz, for example. If I now look away from the casino or

[00:07:48] away from the high-rise on Landhausplatz, I have the Landhaus on it, the TIWAG on it,

[00:07:55] or numerous buildings on it. Tobias [mumbling]: Maybe Stiegeln on the side. Lukas: Please? Tobias: Maybe the Stiegeln on the side. Lukas: For example, the monuments

[00:08:03] on it, the Freedom Monument on it, the streets, that is Willhelm-Greil-Straße and Salurnerstraße

[00:08:10] Tobias: Maybe a few more historic cars. Lukas: Then the historic cars, historic dresses,

[00:08:16] Clothes, advertisements on house facades or something similar, maybe an advertising pillar with posters.

[00:08:23] Tobias: Maybe it's some kind of celebration, that's why the music, the marksmen, the country youths,

[00:08:29] whatever they're all called. Lukas: And then there's the question of where in the skyscraper the shot is taken from

[00:08:35] was photographed, from the high-rise café, and so on. And then you have the Nordkette in the background

[00:08:43] with all the possible and impossible possibilities that you can still see there. And now we still have

[00:08:53] no special features. In other words, a relatively banal photo of me from 1955 would offer so many

[00:09:01] starting points that could be worth describing, that... you can also probably

[00:09:10] days of research to describe everything or not. And to make this assessment,

[00:09:17] how far to go and how far not to go certainly depends a lot on experience and also on the

[00:09:24] individual personality. One person is more interested in moving the masses forward, while others prefer to

[00:09:29] go into depth. But that shows that even a banal photo requires a lot of work

[00:09:36] can be a lot of work. And yes, you just have to make sure that you do it in a reasonable

[00:09:42] to a reasonable level. Tobias: Exactly. And then even if it's described as edited, digitized

[00:09:49] is digitized, then of course for storage, it usually has to be...

[00:09:54] Lukas: Labeled and repackaged. Tobias: Exactly. Lukas: Yes, after the album, because we talked about the album.

[00:09:58] Tobias: Album, you have to look, but but... Lukas: You have to see. Tobias: Ideally, let's put it like this.

[00:10:02] Lukas: It still has to be wrapped in acid-free alkaline-buffered paper and labeled

[00:10:07] and then properly placed in a box.

[00:10:11] Tobias: Exactly. So that it's sort of... And in the right place.

[00:10:14] Lukas: In the right place.

[00:10:15] Tobias: In the right place.

[00:10:17] Lukas: Yes. And of course, that's always a discussion, working with bare hands,

[00:10:24] with cloth gloves or with plastic gloves. Of course, there are also guidelines or recommendations

[00:10:31] from associations, which of course change all the time. Cotton gloves were used for a long time

[00:10:39] were used for a long time until it was discovered that you could, so to speak, use a glove [00:10:46] covered with fungal spores, for example

[00:10:46] covered object and then another one, then you stamp the

[00:10:52] fungal spores onto the new objects. I think you also have to find a new life solution

[00:10:59] and not be scared to death out of sheer fear.

[00:11:03] Tobias: Yes, and above all, you have to, because you spoke before, how detailed.

[00:11:08] Because of course it always depends a bit on the, with photo albums it's clear, the

[00:11:12] individual photos in how much detail, but especially with larger file collections, of course, the

[00:11:16] the question. Where can you, where are the important things, what do you write out here, everything?

[00:11:20] doesn't work. So almost none of that actually gets read. So that's how much time

[00:11:25] you would actually need to look at the files, in the meantime, that's

[00:11:31] three times as long as packing and recording. And of course that's always,

[00:11:36] we don't have, I don't even know what we are now in the archive in total, for archive activities

[00:11:41] eight [stretches out the word], that sort of thing. Lukas: [mumbling] Eight people, yes. Tobias: And not all of them full-time. That means that at some point you have to

[00:11:46] think about where is...

[00:11:48] Lukas: That's a question of the marginal benefit. You just have to say what works and what makes sense

[00:11:54] and what doesn't make sense. And that's also experience, of course, and that's also important,

[00:12:02] to describe objects in such a way that they are also reflected in their meaningfulness.

[00:12:08] Only if I think of a simple street sign, for example, Willhelm-Greil-Straße,

[00:12:19] then you could again, which is often a dating aid, are these now

[00:12:25] the white on wine red that we have now. Before that it was dark brown on cream,

[00:12:32] before that it was black on white and so on. So with these things, if you know

[00:12:39] from when to when it was, you can of course also date photos very well and these are

[00:12:44] the little tricks and tools that we have at hand that help us quickly

[00:12:53] help us to date a photo more quickly than perhaps a borrower would. But that's

[00:12:59] all a lot of experience and yes, but that's also the exciting thing, that you can also learn in the

[00:13:05] you learn something new every day in the course of your research.

[00:13:08] Tobias: Yes, another good example would be the construction stages in the city. Is the bridge already

[00:13:12] there, is the road already there or is that already there, for example, or is that not yet

[00:13:16] there.

[00:13:17] Lukas: Yes, but there are also some very special insidious things. You're too young, you don't know that anymore,

[00:13:22] but older people still know it. There used to be a bicycle silo on the station forecourt

[00:13:29] there was. It was, I don't know, 10, 12 meters high and we just

[00:13:34] pushed the bike in at the bottom and it was then stored in a box in this silo

[00:13:38] and at some point it came out again.

[00:13:41] Tobias: The right one or the...

[00:13:43] Lukas: I don't know. [laughs] But it's something very insidious, because this building has it

[00:13:50] I don't know, 8 years or 10. So there are also rare but still buildings that come

[00:13:58] and leave again without leaving a trace. Or even in the same place, like the train station

[00:14:04] was rebuilt, there was once the red square. That cost a lot of money,

[00:14:10] to color the asphalt red.

[00:14:12] Tobias: Really?

[00:14:13] Lukas: Yes, that cost a lot of money.

[00:14:15] Tobias: I didn't even know that the red...

[00:14:17] But it's not red, so...

[00:14:18] Lukas: It was red. But funnily enough, because it rubbed off the car tires so quickly

[00:14:24] covered, the red square never caught on as a name. But there was already one,

[00:14:32] that was 20 years ago, some of the money that was destroyed was really impressive.

[00:14:40] Tobias: Interesting. No, that's completely new to me [laughing] connected with the red square.

[00:14:44] Lukas: But the exciting thing is that there's not just from when, but from when to when

[00:14:49] also

[00:14:50] Tobias: Something we, or something I always think of and I also like to say when I talk about my

[00:14:56] activity or what I do there, which is often and usually not every day, but

[00:15:02] but what comes up again and again is how physically demanding even archive work can be

[00:15:07] Some people at home might smile at that, but even if

[00:15:10] we say now, you know this by heart, the numbers, what we have in... how many tons of paper we have

[00:15:15] brought to Feldstrasse?

[00:15:17] Lukas: So 170 tons of paper and 30 tons of other objects were transferred to Feldstrasse

[00:15:26] have been transferred. In the meantime, I would estimate that another five tons of paper have been added

[00:15:32] have been added.

[00:15:33] Tobias: Yes, and they also have to, so it's not like they have to... clearly the delivery therefore

[00:15:37] it's by truck and so on, but they also have to be partly moved.

[00:15:41] And that's the...

[00:15:43] Lukas: There was just a user there who needed a few boxes.

[00:15:47] Yes, of course. But from my point of view, the great blessing of Feldstraße is that

[00:15:53] they no longer count in individual boxes but in pallets.

[00:15:58] Tobias: Yes.

[00:15:59] Lukas: And that of course makes it difficult for a single person to transport larger weights

[00:16:06] a piece of cake, [laughs] I would never have thought that I would one day be able to transport part of my bread

[00:16:13] as a pallet driver, a leading person. So that was also unusual, but

[00:16:21] it's very, very beneficial and I'm very, very happy and grateful that we have the

[00:16:28] confidence to be able to take over and adapt the Feldstrasse, that

[00:16:35] we did on a very modest scale.

[00:16:37] But...

[00:16:38] Tobias: It's just fine as a workplace because it's big, you can... so you have space

[00:16:45] just, that's it. Lukas: Yes.

[00:16:46] Tobias: What we simply lack in Badgasse, quite honestly.

[00:16:47] Lukas: Yeah, simple

[00:16:48] Tables that are ten meters long, where you can lay things out to sort them

[00:16:53] and then put them back together again. That alone would be impossible in Badgasse.

[00:16:58] Tobias: Or the room with all the plans. We have in one room, I don't know what it is now

[00:17:04] eight plan cabinets, plus four more, I think, all take up space in

[00:17:09] the Badgasse, it's impossible to find a place for it anywhere, ma maybe in the cellar,

[00:17:13] maybe, if at all.

[00:17:15] Lukas: In the cellar next to the Inn, yes.

[00:17:17] Tobias: But the next problem is yes.

[00:17:19] And that simplified the whole thing.

[00:17:22] Also the storage somewhere, of course.

[00:17:24] Lukas: Yes.

[00:17:25] My field road is not exactly a place that is incredibly representative,

[00:17:31] [laughs] You can't really say that now, but it's not about representativeness, but

[00:17:36] It's simply about having space.

[00:17:37] And it's an excellent object for that.

[00:17:42] But of course, and that's what we assumed, it's a completely different kind of work in the

[00:17:47] Feldstrasse as in the Badgasse.

[00:17:49] And I'm out here for one day every week and I enjoy the day because sometimes

[00:17:59] I'm just happy to see that you've made progress.

[00:18:03] Like rearranging boxes or something.

[00:18:06] That's also fun or sorting something and so on.

[00:18:12] That's also a very pleasant part of the work.

[00:18:18] Tobias: Yes, plus the brewery, the first floor is also not quite [unintelligible]

[00:18:21] That's... That's and... of the... just... olfactory...

[00:18:24] Lukas: I haven't been there for two years.

[00:18:27] Tobias: I [drags out the word] was... Yes, I was once, like we once... we had a guided tour, when was that.

[00:18:33] Lukas: Ah yes, that's when you went for a beer.

[00:18:35] Tobias: Yes, it was just sort of, I extended it a bit and then we went down together

[00:18:39] down for a cool lemonade.

[00:18:43] Lukas: No, I'm on good terms with them, but somehow... yeah... haven't been there in ages.

[00:18:52] Tobias: What else did you want to say? It slipped my mind.

[00:18:54] Lukas: Another part of the field of work is that you also often advise people on what they should do

[00:19:03] can or should do with objects.

[00:19:06] Whether it's conservation, restoration, whether it's selling or not selling.

[00:19:14] Such services also happen relatively often, but of course you don't see anything of them afterwards.

[00:19:21] But I think that's also an important function.

[00:19:25] So if you say, be careful, this is something valuable, it belongs in the Dorotheum or something like that.

[00:19:31] Of course, house liquidations are very popular, if you can take a look,

[00:19:37] whether there's anything left for the archive.

[00:19:39] And if you can then say, be careful, these are still valuable things, that's also fun

[00:19:46] and it happens from time to time.

[00:19:49] And people are relieved that things that are of interest to us are not thrown away.

[00:19:57] So that's something we can also do very gladly and at very short notice

[00:20:03] and have already taken the most interesting objects out of the most inconspicuous apartments.

[00:20:11] I can remember one case, which was almost 20 years ago, yes, it's a small, relatively obscure apartment.

[00:20:20] The earths said we could take everything, but it had to be gone by noon.

[00:20:26] And that was the apartment of a stage designer from the state theater.

[00:20:30] And there are hundreds of sketches and drafts, original drawings.

[00:20:38] And you could cover several decades of stage sets.

[00:20:44] And I know that was on a hot August day and that was one of the dirtiest working days of my life.

[00:20:51] And that was a really, really successful job.

[00:20:56] The apartment really didn't look like it.

[00:20:59] But yes, there are a lot of things you wouldn't expect in Innsbruck.

[00:21:06] Tobias: Yes, apart from the classic work, which we've already touched on a bit,

[00:21:10] of course we also have the publications in the first episode.

[00:21:14] It's not just external, of course. So of course we also have to deliver or do writing work for publications ourselves, so to speak.

[00:21:23] Lukas: Yes, "Innsbruck Remembers" is also paperwork.

[00:21:26] Tobias: "Innsbruck Remembers" plus then we have "Innsbruck Informs".

[00:21:29] Now, which is this year's ...

[00:21:32] Lukas: Will it come back to us from February.

[00:21:34] Tobias: Exactly, and the historical ...

[00:21:36] Lukas: The memorial plaques and the street name plaques.

[00:21:39] But there's not an infinite number of them, but there are a lot of side tasks that we have.

[00:21:48] So we have the "Barcal Prize" at the university, which we donated after an inheritance.

[00:21:54] And we also look after it every year together with the university, for example.

[00:22:01] Or we have the "Gedenkpotenziale", a prize for young artists who create memorial works of art in the context of National Socialism.

[00:22:13] Of course, we are also responsible for consulting on street names.

[00:22:18] So we're responsible for the flags in the city, as we were a long time ago, and for the stage display.

[00:22:24] Tobias: For the flags?

[00:22:25] Lukas: For the flags, to hang out.

[00:22:27] Tobias: Ah well, pff [snorts and laughs] Lukas: Until, I don't know, 10 years ago maybe.

[00:22:31] Tobias: Did you then walk through the streets and say, [in an exaggerated voice] "they have to raise a flag here".

[00:22:35] [laughter] And if they don't raise this flag, then there's an "Organstrafverfügung"!

[00:22:40] Lukas: No, but the stupid flags, in a foehn storm the flags were always broken straight away.

[00:22:46] And we have to reorder them and where do you get them once in 30 years of use?

[00:22:54] a flag of the Fiji Islands. [Tobias snorts]

[00:22:57] Lukas: Yes, exactly. Costs a fortune and you need it once and never again.

[00:23:03] But when the ambassador from Fiji comes, there has to be a flag somewhere.

[00:23:07] Thank God that's done.

[00:23:10] Then I'm responsible for the protection of small historical monuments in the city.

[00:23:14] These are also, what do we have now, there are 200 chapels and wayside shrines.

[00:23:20] Then I've recently become responsible for subsidies in the church sector.

[00:23:27] So for church renovations in particular, and extensions.

[00:23:32] Tobias: You're an expert?

[00:23:34] Lukas: I'm a church expert, but not for the city, I'm a private expert, so to speak.

[00:23:42] Church expert for a few areas.

[00:23:45] And then of course there are all sorts of things to do for the Golden Roof.

[00:23:50] And what else do you actually do all day?

[00:23:53] Tobias: Exhibitions.

[00:23:54] Lukas: Exhibitions are added, which I've actually almost completely stopped doing,

[00:23:59] are conference participations, there are hardly any more,

[00:24:03] I don't know how many years ago I was at the last conference outside Innsbruck.

[00:24:08] Probably ten years ago.

[00:24:10] And then of course there are things like small lectures in senior citizens' groups.

[00:24:17] And so, that's also quite nice, varied, but...

[00:24:20] Tobias: Or the design of...

[00:24:23] So when book presentations and so on. Lukas: Yes, and I mean the evening events, which are actually down there now after Corona, to be honest,

[00:24:31] because the audience has gotten a bit lost in the whole cultural sector.

[00:24:36] I recently went to a reading by two authors who are not unknown.

[00:24:46] And there were, I think, seven of us. As listeners, that of course hurts very, very much, especially for the authors.

[00:24:56] We struggle in the same way with... at a book presentation that there's no audience.

[00:25:02] We're also doing very few events at the moment, precisely because of this fear.

[00:25:08] And I don't know if and how that will work itself out again and how we could counteract the fact that people don't just listen to podcasts,

[00:25:20] but also maybe go to the archive.

[00:25:23] Tobias: That was always ideal for an interaction, that those who listen to the podcasts then come to us in the archive.

[00:25:30] Lukas: And then buy books.

[00:25:31] Tobias: And then buy books, yes, maybe look at the exhibitions.

[00:25:35] Lukas: And come back.

[00:25:35] Tobias: And come back. And listen again.

[00:25:37] And that looks like a vicious circle.

[00:25:40] No, angel circle. [both laugh]

[00:25:42] Lukas: I think it's more like a vicious circle.

[00:25:48] Tobias: Yes, what can you expect when you come from the lowlands.

[00:25:52] Lukas: Hm. Or looking at me.

[00:25:53] Tobias: Yes. [laughs] Or do an episode with you.

[00:25:55] Lukas: Yes. So that's also the attraction of this whole activity, that there's such a variety of things.

[00:26:03] Tobias: And the variety, because not every working day is the same.

[00:26:06] Because you don't know what's coming up.

[00:26:07] Lukas: Nobody is the same.

[00:26:08] There are... there are political Committees...

[00:26:14] Then you're represented on a few committees, a few juries from time to time.

[00:26:18] So there are so many different activities that no two days are the same and above all [laughs briefly] no two days are really predictable,

[00:26:27] who comes in the door next.

[00:26:31] Tobias: Yes, because it's not always that, it's a constant, but it's just that someone comes in the door.

[00:26:38] But what he wants, what he needs, that's usually unpredictable, of course.

[00:26:44] And then you can sometimes get the most bizarre requests.

[00:26:47] But [laughs] as I said, it's also interesting and varied.

[00:26:51] Because of course you have your own interests, I'll say, both privately and professionally.

[00:26:57] And you often break with your interests and look at something else, where I myself also give before that,

[00:27:05] I also openly admit that I had no idea.

[00:27:07] State history, I don't know.

[00:27:09] And then this view goes outwards and then your own horizon spreads somewhere.

[00:27:16] Lukas: Yes, of course, you learn something.

[00:27:18] You see things in a new or different way.

[00:27:21] But you have to pay attention to one thing.

[00:27:25] There are family traditions in every family, reports about what grandpa or grandma or whoever did.

[00:27:31] Of course, you always have to make sure that you don't pass these things on to third parties without checking them.

[00:27:39] So, grandpa did this and that and then Mr. X says Mr. Y did this.

[00:27:45] That always has to be checked, otherwise you run the risk of passing on family legends incorrectly, so to speak.

[00:27:54] That's not entirely unproblematic.

[00:27:57] And of course, we also meet characters of all kinds.

[00:28:01] Both good and not so good, who also put a lot of strain on you.

[00:28:08] I think the way Adolf-Pichler-Platz was rebuilt creeps me out a bit,

[00:28:18] there was one of the main citizen and movement people who was very active there.

[00:28:27] And he came to me regularly to bring me the posters that they had put up.

[00:28:35] Which is very nice, I think we still have six folders full.

[00:28:38] And on the other hand, it was very exhausting and actually always more or less drunk.

[00:28:48] And that was always a very difficult appointment.

[00:28:56] And then afterwards, you always had to ventilate a lot.

[00:29:02] And so, there are also difficult cases that you have to deal with.

[00:29:07] Unfortunately, the person in question died shortly afterwards of cirrhosis of the liver.

[00:29:12] And so, you go through the whole spectrum.

[00:29:19] I think one of the best memories is a book about everyday life in Innsbruck.

[00:29:29] And there's a photo of a policeman in it.

[00:29:33] Tobias: So on the cover?

[00:29:35] Lukas: On the cover. And this policeman was a French occupying soldier.

[00:29:43] And his son was rummaging around unsuspectingly in a bookshop in Innsbruck a few years ago.

[00:29:50] And [laughs] sees the photo of his father on the cover.

[00:29:55] He was of course very, very, very happy.

[00:29:58] And yes, it's just like that.

[00:30:00] Tobias: And you, did he still show up at your place?

[00:30:02] Lukas: Yes, he showed up. And I was in contact with him for a long time.

[00:30:08] He wasn't a child anymore.

[00:30:10] So you meet interesting people and personalities over the years.

[00:30:18] But it's also nice to be able to help an elementary school student with a quiz about the old town.

[00:30:26] [Lukas changes his voice; talks childishly] "How many shingles does the golden roof have?" [Tobias laughs]

[00:30:30] There are always groups of children running around at the end of the school day.

[00:30:34] Tobias: Yes, they always go on these scavenger hunts.

[00:30:36] Lukas: Yes, exactly, the funniest thing is when someone is wiff enough and says we're going to the city archives.

[00:30:43] And then maybe, because you help them, they finish the quiz relatively quickly.

[00:30:47] Tobias: Yes, I would have thought of that as a child...

[00:30:49] And above all, these are mostly, what are they?

[00:30:51] They're not elementary school kids, are they?

[00:30:53] I find it so difficult to assess children.

[00:30:56] Lukas: They haven't been here for a while now anyway, but they used to come here all the time.

[00:31:00] Tobias: Mhm, I can still remember them well. They used to spill out downstairs at the museum ticket office and then they were sent up.

[00:31:06] It was always funny anyway, somehow.

[00:31:08] What other activities do we have that are worth mentioning?

[00:31:13] Lukas: Of course, as part of the public administration, we are not primarily profit-optimized and profit-oriented.

[00:31:21] And I also see a very specific and very conscious task for the public sector, which does far too little to ensure that people with various disabilities also have a job.

[00:31:38] And we have 30 percent people with at least 50 percent disability.

[00:31:47] I think that's very important.

[00:31:49] They were all deliberately hired or taken on by me.

[00:31:55] They are also people who had to leave the town hall, who wanted to leave.

[00:32:02] And I believe that this is done far too little in public administration or in public companies, that people with disabilities are employed within the scope of their possibilities.

[00:32:17] We also have someone with a 100 percent disability and after 20 years she has now also been given assistance.

[00:32:25] It puts your own view of your own health into perspective.

[00:32:32] But it has also become a very important part of life for many of these people.

[00:32:39] And it's extremely unfortunate that there aren't more places that give these people a chance.

[00:32:47] It doesn't always work out anyway.

[00:32:49] Sometimes it hasn't worked either, but I think most of these projects, integration projects, work well to very well.

[00:33:02] And what makes me infinitely grumpy is that in the administrative area people are treated as if they were fully capable of working, but because of their disability they are not fully capable of working.

[00:33:21] And then you hear, you've got so many people anyway, you've got so many people anyway, but nobody says that they can't or don't have to be fully operational.

[00:33:32] But it's annoying that they're counted as healthy in the duty roster, so to speak, but they're not fully healthy.

[00:33:40] Nevertheless, I wouldn't give one up voluntarily, but I think it's a very, very important and completely underestimated task of public administration.

[00:33:53] On the other hand, we also have the opportunity to work with interns, especially in the summer.

[00:34:00] Tobias: [quietly] Right, exactly, that's what I wanted to talk about with the internship.

[00:34:02] Lukas: And the administration is very, very generous towards us, that we can have a lot of them and for many months.

[00:34:14] Tobias: I think this year we were actually from May to November.

[00:34:19] Lukas: Until November and then the trainees will join us, they'll come too.

[00:34:25] But we've had a lot of them and we're very grateful for that and I also believe that the interns who are either studying or about to choose a course of study can also gain a lot from it and say, I want to study that or I'd rather not.

[00:34:43] Tobias: Yes, because we've had a lot of students this year, of course, in the middle of their studies.

[00:34:50] Some of them were at the beginning of their studies, they're, what are they, 19, 20 something like that.

[00:34:55] But of course we also had one, I think two months, where we actually had mainly students.

[00:35:01] They were, I think, about to take their A-levels.

[00:35:04] That's also interesting, of course, because that's also very different for us somewhere, because the people are at a completely different stage of life.

[00:35:13] But it's still... all of them interesting somewhere across the board.

[00:35:16] Lukas: Yes, and so across the board that the oldest intern we've ever had was 58 [Tobias laughs]

[00:35:23] And this year we also have Claudia, who is 55, 55.

[00:35:30] Tobias: Something like that, I think. Without her there... [laughs] Lukas: I don't know... [both talking in confusion] Tobias: [laughing] Not that I'll get any feedback afterwards. [laughs]

[00:35:38] Lukas: And flying the knife.

[00:35:41] But it's also nice to give people who are going to go to university later on the chance to take their first professional steps, so to speak,

[00:35:52] who are studying with a completely different set of interests and then no longer want to do it as their main job, but perhaps as a side job.

[00:36:05] Tobias: And you have to say, I say, if you want to work historically, jobs are always limited.

[00:36:13] So of course there are several options, but the big institutions, like the city archives, the state archives, the state museum, then it's relatively tight anyway.

[00:36:25] Lukas: And the university, yes.

[00:36:27] Tobias: Yes, and university of course, of course.

[00:36:28] Lukas: So they say you can actually try to gain a foothold through projects or something like that anyway.

[00:36:36] But of course there are people who start studying at 40 or something to do that as an inclination,

[00:36:43] have the great advantage that they then work with a completely different life experience than someone who has never worked in an office or something.

[00:36:54] So that's also very helpful for us and also these interns, I hope that this system stays with us, but it's something very valuable.

[00:37:08] Tobias: Yes, especially for us, as stupid as it sounds, but they take so much of the work off our hands, where we're not really in...

[00:37:18] or at least we can't invest so much time in recording or fine-tuning photo albums, photo collections, where we can just sit down and do that,

[00:37:30] they can then take turns in the month plus/minus and always a little bit of course, but working on that, where we then have to jump, then the deadline is the deadline,

[00:37:39] We simply don't have that luxury anymore. But only to the interns since when, can you remember since when, we in the archive or,

[00:37:50] I mean, in the city probably longer anyway, but this practice with the fact that it's really busy in the summer, it's divided up between the city.

[00:37:58] Lukas: And the really large number that we've had in the last few years, I would say, only goes back four or five years.

[00:38:06] There were a few years where there were no interns at all at the city because only the sons and daughters of Magisterial staff could do internships,

[00:38:21] or that was almost a bit of an abuse of the internship, that they only placed their own children there.

[00:38:30] And then, I don't know, ten or twelve years ago, it was stopped at some point and then they said it was no use anyway and then there were no internships for a few years,

[00:38:41] But now there are some again, although many departments don't want any, because that's partly true, until they can do something, they're gone again.

[00:38:52] Tobias: Well, I'm just thinking about legal matters, aren't you?

[00:38:56] Lukas: I don't know anything, but even if it's just normal office work, by the time he knows what an official channel is, he's gone.

[00:39:04] That's certainly a problem, we don't just have insanely important activities, there's also a big gradation.

[00:39:16] The photo album I mentioned earlier also has to be numbered, or something has to be scanned or... Tobias: It has to be sorted.

[00:39:26] Lukas: Sorting. Very simple, sorting by date is definitely one of the most common tasks, but it has to be done and, as you say, you have to be able to keep at it.

[00:39:38] If there's nothing, or even being able to put things next to each other on a large table.

[00:39:43] That's also [laughs briefly] a very important point and of course it's great if you have helpers who are interested and who enjoy it.

[00:39:54] Tobias: And above all, I think the feedback is mostly from the interns.

[00:39:59] What we have, I think.

[00:40:01] The negative ones can always be difficult to get back, but I don't remember any major complaints, not to pat ourselves on the back.

[00:40:11] But we simply have the advantage that we have very different activities, which are not always commonplace.

[00:40:19] Lukas: But we also have a few, among the permanent employees, a few younger people, not just old people like you and them. [Tobias laughs]

[00:40:26] But I mean, they are, Pascal is...

[00:40:31] Tobias: Late 30s, I think, late 90s, no, I'll say 90, late 20s.

[00:40:36] Lukas: Yes, would have been mid to mid.

[00:40:39] I think he's just finished his studies and all that. So I actually see almost everyone as an enrichment for the archive, not just for their work, but also because everyone has some kind of knowledge or experience.

[00:40:58] That's a very helpful business.

[00:41:01] Tobias: What we perhaps don't have and where we have to avoid is now, for example, when it's restoration work.

[00:41:09] So we don't have a fixer now, we could maybe mention that in the post. We don't have a fixed restorer on the team.

[00:41:15] Lukas: Would be nice, yeah.

[00:41:18] But is...

[00:41:20] Tobias: But we also don't have enough, I think, probably, right?

[00:41:22] Lukas: No, we have a paper restorer, we have a few [unintelligible]

[00:41:27] We don't have one, we won't get one I'm afraid, we have to fall back on freelance restorers, restorers who are available in many areas, but unfortunately not in all of them.

[00:41:41] You often have to look really hard to find one.

[00:41:44] But now for textiles we have a project to have all the textile things looked at.

[00:41:52] And otherwise we have a few paper restorers who have been doing smaller jobs for us for many years.

[00:42:01] Tobias: I think we've actually covered the work steps quite well anyway, the many areas of work.

[00:42:08] We could consider whether we could...

[00:42:11] Lukas: What might also be of interest is the question of how files get from Baddgasse to Feldstrasse and how?

[00:42:20] Tobias: Yes, you can still do that.

[00:42:22] Lukas: Yes, because of course, we're in Baddgasse and some of the material is in Feldstrasse.

[00:42:31] Although the files for daily use, construction, trade are already in Baddgasse, but you still have to transport things back and forth often.

[00:42:41] And we've put out a tender for shuttle transportation, and we have a small haulier who's almost part of the family, a one-man operation.

[00:42:55] And this is a trustworthy person who can transport the materials back and forth via a lock system when he comes outside of working hours.

[00:43:06] And that actually works really well, and if he has time and it's urgent, then he jumps in and otherwise you just have to get someone on a bike or something.

[00:43:19] Tobias: And transportation, which we've talked about before, to, what's called the Landesarchiv Volks-... or the provincial museums, he also does for us.

[00:43:29] Lukas: He also takes care of some of it, although for [Tobias in between: It depends] Lukas: ...art objects, we get various specialist forwarding agencies, art forwarding agencies, that's what we offer each time.

[00:43:46] That's a point that also shows a bit that we actually have a very good connection to various small companies, so whether it's the bookbinders, whether it's a one-man shipping company.

[00:44:00] In this respect, we are probably one of those places that maintain this urban infrastructure, because if we and other libraries didn't give orders to local bookbinders, there would soon be no more bookbinders, which is difficult enough as it is.

[00:44:20] Tobias: Above all, you shouldn't just think about the classic books, but also the newspapers, for example the TT [Tiroler Tageszeitung], because we collect the daily newspapers, up to and including, of course, on an ongoing basis and they are then also handed over in a collected form and then bound.

[00:44:33] Lukas: Yes, of course, yes. Or also boxes, special... we needed very special boxes for textiles and we had them made to measure.

[00:44:42] And that's also important, I think, that you keep such professions alive and we get exactly what we need.

[00:44:54] I think that's also a small secondary function that you have there.

[00:44:59] Tobias: But one aspect that has come to mind with transportation since...

[00:45:05] I mean, of course, that's also changed a lot, so simplified is perhaps wrong now, but before we took over the Feldstrasse depot, we were more or less spread out across the city.

[00:45:15] We have a depot in Hofwaldweg, so basically in Hötting at the top. Lukas: Exlgasse. Tobias: One in Exlgasse and then we also have [clicks tongue] opposite, where the "Mustache" is today, or what used to be the "Kenzi" is now the "Woosabi",

[00:45:32] we also have things from... that was actually a logistical nightmare.

[00:45:38] Lukas: Yes, of course, because the things were, everything was crammed up to the roof, it was

[00:45:42] terrible, I mean, of course it tends to get crowded in Feldstrasse as well.

[00:45:48] Tobias: But it's in one place, that's the only advantage.

[00:45:50] Lukas: And above all

[00:45:51] [laughs briefly]

[00:45:52] the

[00:45:53] paper act

[00:45:54] from the administration

[00:45:55] is getting less and less

[00:45:55] less and less.

[00:45:56] Des

[00:45:57] is drying up

[00:45:57] drying up, this

[00:45:58] river.

[00:46:00] And, that will take some time

[00:46:02] but it is tending to become less.

[00:46:04] And so the field road is certainly a

[00:46:06] huge benefit for us.

[00:46:08] In order to fulfill the legal mandate

[00:46:10] to comply with the legal mandate.

[00:46:12] And of course we do and we do

[00:46:14] gladly, and I think it's actually

[00:46:16] in contrast to many other professions

[00:46:18] where you say, I'll just go in and do it

[00:46:20] and then go home again in the evening

[00:46:22] but with us it's more of a

[00:46:24] a story that can only be told successfully

[00:46:26] only with a lot of inclination

[00:46:28] to do it.

[00:46:30] And I think that's a big difference to

[00:46:32] especially in administration

[00:46:34] many activities,

[00:46:36] that are relatively monotonous.

[00:46:38] The fact that it's so varied

[00:46:40] and exciting, you can also

[00:46:42] also, only with a lot of

[00:46:44] zeal

[00:46:46] and having fun doing it.

[00:46:48] And then that doesn't work

[00:46:50] end at 5 p.m., but that

[00:46:52] goes on from there. And that's

[00:46:54] actually what makes it so nice, because

[00:46:56] then you just go on the

[00:46:58] weekend you go for a walk and look at the

[00:47:00] this and that that you're researching

[00:47:02] and you have that in

[00:47:04] many other areas

[00:47:06] and that's a great blessing.

[00:47:08] Tobias: Important final question

[00:47:10] How long do you estimate, or how long

[00:47:12] do you think it will take for someone to get to

[00:47:14] needs a forklift license in our company

[00:47:16] to be able to [laughing]

[00:47:18] to fulfill the tasks.

lukas: [00:47:20] Someone even has a forklift license. Tobias: [astonished] Really?

[00:47:22] Yes, then we are already

[00:47:24] equipped for the future! Lukas: No, well

[00:47:26] I mean, the field road will be

[00:47:28] now, if nothing

[00:47:30] unforeseen happens

[00:47:32] also become increasingly full

[00:47:34] but we still have reserved seats that

[00:47:36] we will gradually fill up

[00:47:38] when we need it

[00:47:40] Nobody would have ever expected the ant

[00:47:42] pallets around.

[00:47:44] It will take time for a real forklift

[00:47:46] but... Tobias: It's not impossible.

[00:47:48] Lukas: It's... Tobias: Nothing is unimaginable.

[00:47:50] It's just unbelievable,

[00:47:52] because I think to myself how it was 25 years ago

[00:47:54] a little

[00:47:56] modest company.

[00:47:58] And now we're driving around with pallets.

[00:48:00] So that's quite something,

[00:48:02] which I find kind of amazing.

[00:48:06] How much longer I do it,

[00:48:08] we'll see.

[00:48:10] But certainly not [laughing] 25 more years.

[00:48:12] But

[00:48:14] I'm having so much fun at the moment that

[00:48:16] [longer pause]

[00:48:18] But it was different, too. But

[00:48:20] yes...

[00:48:22] it's nice to come back here.

[00:48:24] Tobias: You don't have to tell me.

[00:48:26] On that note, thank you, Lukas, for your time.

[00:48:28] Lukas: Yes, with pleasure.

[00:48:30] [Outro music]

[00:00:00] [Intro music] Tobias: Hello and welcome to a new episode of Archivwürdig, the podcast of the

[00:00:18] Innsbruck City Archives. In today's episode we talk about the fire department.

[00:00:22] To be precise, a little bit about the history of the fire department, the past anniversary year 2022 of the fire departments

[00:00:28] and about the exhibition that was on display in the city museum as part of this anniversary.

[00:00:32] My colleague from the archive Matthias Egger, who is himself a member of the volunteer fire brigade, is a guest

[00:00:37] fire department and curator of the exhibition, as well as Manfred Liebentritt, a

[00:00:42] Head of Fire Brigade History at the Tyrolean Fire Brigade Association. The episode was

[00:00:47] already recorded in the course of the exhibition and is now available for listening via our program and thus

[00:00:52] to the episode. Yes, dear Matthias, dear Manfred, thank you for your time,

[00:00:58] that you're sitting down with me today and we're talking about the subject of the fire department and the subject of

[00:01:06] Fire brigade why, because we're celebrating several different anniversaries this year in 2022. And that is

[00:01:15] one is 165 years of the Tyrol Fire Brigade Association. Matthias: Should I say it? Tobias: Please! [laughs] It was basically the

[00:01:27] allusion. Matthias: So we have 150 years of the Tyrolean Fire Brigade Association, we have 125 years of the Innsbruck Fire Brigade Association

[00:01:36] professional fire department, we have 75 years of the founding of the Innsbruck District Fire Brigade Association,

[00:01:41] we have 25 years of the Innsbruck Oldtimer Fire Brigade Club and if we look back to the founding phase

[00:01:48] of the Innsbruck fire department, then this year we also have 165 years of the Innsbruck city fire department. Why

[00:01:55] as I say this and say it last, the oldest anniversary, we can then

[00:02:00] perhaps because there have been certain caesuras in the history of the fire department and

[00:02:04] breaks and that's why. Tobias: I think we can do that right away anyway. Why actually 165 years, because you said,

[Matthias: A well-known German chancellor once said that it's all very complicated, [laughs]

[00:02:17] That also applies to the fire department, of course. It's commonly said that Franz Thurner in 1857,

[00:02:23] a native of St. Nicholas, who would have founded the Innsbruck fire department. We have

[00:02:30] looked at it again together with Manfred, with Christoph Eichner, who also played a major role in

[00:02:36] the exhibition, went to the sources and asked ourselves what did

[00:02:41] Thurner actually founded and then we saw that yes, he founded a rescue department. That

[00:02:47] means it's not so much about extinguishing the fire, but about rescuing

[00:02:50] of human lives and valuables and, of course, he lays the foundation for the development

[00:02:56] of a professional fire department, which he also got to know on his travels through Germany

[00:03:01] learned on his travels through Germany. But it took a few years, and he was also lucky enough to have Karl-Adam,

[00:03:06] Adam Preuss is probably familiar to most people. Karl-Adam is a member of this rescue department

[00:03:13] and Karl-Adam becomes mayor of Innsbruck and as such he also makes it his business

[00:03:19] to turn this rescue department into a complete "fire brigade choir", as he calls it. He

[00:03:26] sends an appeal to the people of Innsbruck, asking them to join and outlines

[00:03:30] he then outlines in detail. So we have a rescue department, but we need a hose team,

[00:03:35] we need an orderly team, we need a riser team and so on, we need appropriate

[00:03:39] organized fire department and that takes until 1864 and in 1864 we have the first fire department regulations

[00:03:48] in the city with which the command at the fire station and also the task of firefighting

[00:03:53] as such was placed in the hands of the volunteer fire department. And with that we have

[00:03:57] actually this development, so it takes seven years from the Thurner to the foundation stone,

[00:04:03] until this development towards the voluntary fire department, as we know it today

[00:04:07] is completed and if you then follow the history further, we have in the

[00:04:12] exhibition, we had a line of hoses that begins, so to speak, in 1857 and leads up to the year 2022

[00:04:20] and listed all the important stages in this 165-year history,

[00:04:30] then you can also see that this old volunteer fire department in Innsbruck was actually founded in 1945

[00:04:36] disbanded. So it was already fundamentally reorganized by the National Socialists in 1938

[00:04:46] it was no longer an association, all the assets were transferred to the city and that was

[00:04:50] of course everything was brought into line with National Socialism and in 1942 the

[00:04:58] voluntary fire department formed a unit with the fire police, but in 1945

[00:05:03] almost all the companies were disbanded and there was only one fire brigade in Sieglanger outside,

[00:05:09] which continues to exist and there is a bridge with it, which is today's

[00:05:15] Wilten fire department, where you have a connection to the old volunteer fire department in Innsbruck. You can

[00:05:20] very briefly, of course, when Mannfred is sitting there, Mühlau is of course, Hötting, Amras and so on

[00:05:26] all the incorporated villages around Innsbruck also had voluntary fire departments, but

[00:05:32] of course they were only incorporated in [19]38 or then with the second [19]40 and the second

[00:05:39] wave of a common part of the Innsbruck fire department, so they were very young and you can

[00:05:42] so now, of course, they continue to exist today as independent units in the association of the

[00:05:47] fire department of the city of Innsbruck, but are not part of this old Innsbruck fire department, so to speak,

[00:05:52] hence the 165 years. Tobias: This year [dialect for "this year"] we have an exhibition in the city archive under

[00:05:59] entitled "With full commitment" by... When was the start date in ... Matthias: [very quietly] June 8, I think

[00:06:06] [All talking in confusion] June 8 [laughing] [unintelligible] Tobias: I think June 8, yes. And until October 26th, so until the national holiday,

[00:06:14] with a corresponding program. So it's not as if we as the city archive are the only ones who have a

[00:06:20] planned a big exhibition, but there were also events all around. So on the day of the fire department

[00:06:25] big celebrations in the city, you could say. There was a vintage car club from Kitzbühel,

[00:06:32] [unintelligible] Manfred: Several. They tried to show the history of the fire department in this area with exhibits from the

[00:06:40] the whole country. Tobias: But maybe now back to the, so actually I wanted to refer to the

[00:06:45] exhibition. How can you imagine it now, how is it there... or let's put it this way,

[00:06:48] how did the process come about that the exhibition in our city archive came about in the first place?

[00:06:54] where did the spark first come from, so to speak, with the fire department, was it with us, was it ...

[00:07:00] Matthias: Actually, the Innsbruck professional fire department approached us against the background of the

[00:07:04] anniversary, that we should do something, so to speak, and whether an exhibition would be a good idea. We have in

[00:07:10] we've been able to take over large stocks from the professional fire department over the last few years, which is a significant

[00:07:18] also thanks to Manfred and other firefighters with an affinity for history who have an

[00:07:26] had an eye on it. So a lot of things that were thought to be lost were saved after all

[00:07:32] could be saved. Including the large photo archive of the professional fire department. So it really is an incredible treasure trove,

[00:07:37] We were able to take over the incident reports. That means we have a foundation on which

[00:07:41] we can build on in terms of material. Nonetheless, we'll go into that in the course of the conversation

[00:07:47] the structures that are in place at the state level, at the district level and in the

[00:07:52] city in the fire departments with regard to the history of the fire department, which are quite

[00:07:57] are crucial, because we ourselves as an archive, we generally have flat goods, as the saying goes

[00:08:04] is called. So we have documents, we have photos, but with objects, for reasons of space

[00:08:10] sometimes difficult and our exhibition in particular lives from the objects that

[00:08:16] we can show. We are of course limited by the door and its dimensions

[00:08:21] in the Badgasse. Unfortunately, we can't bring a car into the exhibition... or we don't have one

[00:08:24] we can't put a big syringe to control [laughs] all of us in there,

[00:08:31] but we have a hand-drawn fire engine, we have jet pipes on display, we have the

[00:08:37] helmets, we have uniform sets, we have, even Benedikt today at the exhibition

[00:08:43] The architect has tried to make sure that the materiality of the fire department, i.e. we have used ladders

[00:08:48] parts to make a mobile, we just made the hose line around the timeline, so to speak

[00:08:55] really with hoses, with historical couplings there, so that you can depict that and that

[00:09:01] we wouldn't have had all that in the archive. Tobias: And the uniforms, or did you already mention the

[00:09:06] uniforms? Matthias: I also have the uniforms, so we don't have that in the archive, we have to rely on that,

[00:09:13] that the fire department helped us with that,

[00:09:19] that was mainly Manfred with the village workshop in Mühlau, where the Innsbruck

[00:09:23] fire departments, the historical and fortunately. We have in many areas simply

[00:09:30] documentation gaps, it's also clear, on the other hand, that in the individual

[00:09:35] fire stations sometimes have limited space and there needs to be a central location somewhere,

[00:09:40] where this could be done permanently or it would be very desirable if something like this could be set up

[00:09:45] where you can permanently store objects that you consider to be historically valuable.

[00:09:51] We have that, for example, with pagers [small, portable communication device that can receive short messages]. So you don't need to go back 100 years,

[00:09:55] that's wait 30, 40 years, that's one of my favorite objects in the exhibition, because if you look at the

[00:09:59] in the round, or you go through it with fire department groups. I've already heard [laughing] different opinions

[00:10:04] and you can also see that the contemporary witness is the historian's worst enemy, because he was there, but it's

[00:10:10] often very difficult to define something, to say, okay, this is a [pager] of the first

[00:10:16] generation, the second or third generation, if you don't have any additional documents,

[00:10:21] when sometimes protocols are missing or the knowledge has simply been lost. And that's why

[00:10:27] the history of the fire department as a whole is also a really important part and is especially

[00:10:35] of course in anniversary years like today. If you go down to the unit level at

[00:10:41] every 125 years, then at the latest you always ask, yes, what was it actually like and you

[00:10:47] would like a commemorative publication or we would at least like the commander to give a speech,

[00:10:50] would like to go into the history, that's when it gets really clumsy [dialect for holey]. And then you can just

[00:10:56] not lose sight of the anniversaries, so to speak, but you have to work on it constantly.

[00:11:00] Tobias: Exactly, because you can't just start collecting for one year, because if you do then it has to be

[00:11:05] happen continuously. Matthias: And what's thrown away is thrown away, as banal as that sounds,

[00:11:09] it's lost and so is the knowledge about it. Tobias: Before we then go on to the next step anyway

[00:11:16] briefly talk about the objects again, I would like to mention beforehand that they were

[00:11:21] many interviews that we did with contemporary witnesses in the course of these exhibitions,

[00:11:26] both active and retired members of the fire department, who were also included in the exhibition

[00:11:33] not all of them, I think, but many of them, it was also presented via multimedia

[00:11:39] devices. But maybe Matthias, if I could ask you, if you would be so kind as to give us a few

[00:11:47] your highlights, you already mentioned the pager, but maybe a little bit of a ramble or

[00:11:52] a few highlights or just key points from the exhibition that might be useful for the, for our

[00:11:57] dear listeners, what is perhaps important or where you think to yourself, I'm not so

[00:12:03] aware that the fire department was there in this way or perhaps mainly because the reference is very

[00:12:08] to Innsbruck, that the Innsbruck fire department was perhaps already so active or so forward-looking.

[00:12:14] Matthias: Maybe if I take another step back, I first said so pointedly, so the

[00:12:18] contemporary witness the greatest enemy, that is... Tobias: Do you want to revise that statement? Matthias: I would like to contextualize it. [laughter]

[00:12:23] The eyewitnesses, of course they are undoubtedly important, especially when it comes to,

[00:12:29] to convey the experiences, including what has changed. We spoke to the pensioners,

[00:12:35] what it was like to be on 24-hour duty with the professional fire department in the 70s. We have

[00:12:41] talked about operations, how they perceived it, the stresses and strains involved.

[00:12:46] You can learn a lot from the contemporary witnesses, that's a wealth of knowledge, which of course we can't ignore

[00:12:52] not only through the audio stations, but also as part of the exhibition with

[00:12:57] conversations with contemporary witnesses, backed up by historical film and photographic material. And that is

[00:13:04] actually also an important approach for me, that you use this opportunity to get into conversation

[00:13:09] and you can then, if you take that together, the input that you get from the contemporary witnesses

[00:13:16] and supplement that with written sources, with photo sources, then you really get a

[00:13:20] good picture of the time. So I can remember and I actually took that to heart at the

[00:13:26] university. In one of the first lectures it was said that if you really wanted to learn something about a time or a

[00:13:30] era, then you should read historical works and a memoir or a diary

[00:13:36] and a [unintelligible], then you get a good understanding and you get that from the mixture that makes

[00:13:43] so to speak. But that's just on the subject and that was a big part of the exhibition,

[00:13:49] this contemporary witness track. Tobias: That means we used a lot of exhibits in our exhibition

[00:13:56] and maybe Matthias and Manfred, if you would be so kind and maybe two or three objects,

[00:14:04] which stand out for you in particular or are perhaps especially worth mentioning.

[00:14:13] Matthias: So for me, if we're talking about the objects, I find the helmet parade on the one hand

[00:14:21] fascinating that we have. We have from the first, [whispered] earliest helmet generations to

[00:14:28] actually up to the year 2022, we were able to trace the development of helmets in Innsbruck.

[00:14:34] You can see the different shapes, but you can also see the parallels, i.e. that you can see

[00:14:39] you can recognize certain functions on the helmet, that's something from the early days with the commander helmets,

[00:14:45] which has lasted until now, that you have green stickers for the respirator wearers or

[00:14:53] a yellow or gold color for officers/command functions, so that runs through and you see

[00:15:00] also that the development is not linear, but the spider helmets, the so-called helmets

[00:15:06] Viennese form, aluminum helmets, were already introduced in [the] 30s in Innsbruck, then

[00:15:11] in the Second World War, of course, the steel helmets, air-raid helmets came, after the war

[00:15:17] the aluminum helmets were reintroduced in the spider helmet type and under fire director Stolz [19]56

[00:15:24] then helmets reminiscent of the steel helmets were reintroduced, which were used until 1970

[00:15:30] in use in the city, at least in the professional fire department, against the background that Stolz

[00:15:35] himself was an officer in the Second World War and was of the opinion that this type of helmet was obviously

[00:15:40] better protection and that they were more practical than the spider helmets, so you can do a lot of

[00:15:45] a lot out of it and then again about the time and the people and the second thing that I still

[00:15:50] or what I find very remarkable is actually not an object in the real sense, but

[00:15:55] these are two photographs that we have in the exhibition, one is from the 70s, where you can see

[00:16:02] experimented with model helicopters at the professional fire department and the fire director Angermeier,

[00:16:07] the background was that we got the two Olympic Games in Innsbruck, the first

[00:16:11] skyscrapers and that will also bring the topic of high-rise fires, rescuing people and fighting fires in

[00:16:18] great heights in tall buildings, the ladders have a certain limit, in Innsbruck

[00:16:26] the first DL37, a turntable ladder with a 37-metre climbing height, was purchased in 1963

[00:16:37] quite far, but you can't reach the roof of every building for the longest time and you have

[00:16:41] then tried to experiment with model helicopters by pulling up lines,

[00:16:47] to which you can then attach hoses, so you actually already have echoes of the drone

[00:16:52] today, they didn't let themselves be put off, even if they were perhaps ridiculed back then

[00:16:56] here and there, because what do you do with model helicopters, do you play there or do you have

[00:17:00] also developed a line launching device to pull up the lines to rescue the people around them

[00:17:07] rescue options, it's almost reminiscent of Batman, [laughs] so it's really just that there's no grappling hook

[00:17:13] in the front, but they had throwing balls with a nylon string inside that could just be thrown from the ground

[00:17:19] thrown up and then you can pull something up again, so that's quite impressive,

[00:17:25] how far-sighted they actually were, they didn't take a shit, but they

[00:17:30] they simply tried things out, they had the challenge and they experimented and didn't try too hard

[00:17:35] cared whether they were smiling or whether it was "state of the art" for others,

[00:17:40] but they tried to develop something themselves, certainly in exchange with each other via the committees

[00:17:45] and above all the way it is today, but they also went their own way and simply tried to do the best they could

[00:17:52] to master these challenges with unconventional methods. Tobias: You just weren't afraid

[00:17:58] even if it wasn't used now, but it's just that there is,

[00:18:06] no stupid attempts, no stupid questions, but you have to try to find solutions out of necessity, so to speak

[00:18:11] to find solutions that are perhaps unconventional at first, but perhaps in the long term

[00:18:16] in the long run, you couldn't have known that, and that was probably the,

[00:18:20] how to say it, as stupid as it sounds, but the fire department simply hasn't yet come up with these,

[00:18:24] or at least not before with these challenges,

[00:18:27] big, especially when you say high-rise buildings, they weren't there before.

[00:18:33] Matthias: No, just that. Of course, if you look at the educational films that were produced,

[00:18:37] you've also looked at how it's handled in American cities, of course

[00:18:43] in South America, in part, and also tried to learn the lessons from that, but then just

[00:18:49] adapted to the context of Innsbruck and the space you have there, to the circumstances, your own solutions

[00:18:55] or to adapt them or develop them further and yes, it's not for nothing that the professional fire brigade was

[00:19:02] and the Angermeier was really a respected fire department throughout Europe, the Innsbruck system of forest fire

[00:19:08] Firefighting has been exported as far as Spain, even there, so helicopters in the fire department,

[00:19:13] Innsbruck was at the forefront of development.

[00:19:18] Tobias: Manfred, do you have a highlight from the exhibition that stands out for you?

[00:19:23] or what is important to you that you would like to have mentioned again?

[00:19:28] Manfred: Yes, the things that you only see at second glance are important to me.

[00:19:35] If you take a closer look at the tube line, for example, you can see in this time line

[00:19:41] the different fire hoses that were used in these respective time periods.

[00:19:48] The hemp hose, the rubberized hand hose, the modern hose, the threaded couplings,

[00:19:55] the screw thread, the standard coupling and then this general coupling, the Storz, which is still used today

[00:20:00] is still used today. So it's also in this exhibition for people who want to be more precise

[00:20:05] take a closer look, there are some bent parts that can be explored at second glance and

[00:20:11] questioned. The same thing happens with the exhibition or with the wall, with

[00:20:16] the display wall, the fire engines, which at first glance are actually quite

[00:20:22] many vehicles and when you take a closer look, you can already see the

[00:20:26] development of the vehicles over the different eras with the

[00:20:31] specialization, when it was first a vehicle for crew transport, then the

[00:20:35] sprayers and then there were these special vehicles,

[00:20:39] vianier vehicle, armored vehicle, where you also had to meet the special requirements

[00:20:44] of the fire departments. Tobias: And in the meantime, we don't even have all the

[00:20:49] vehicles in the exhibition or just on display, because there are...

[00:20:56] Mattias, there are... Matthias: So we've documented around 90 of them, and of course we also have some sources of..

[00:21:02] had problems. There are of course well over 100 fire engines in the city of Innsbruck

[00:21:07] in service, but as Manfred says, you can read a lot from them

[00:21:12] and I think the main development steps in vehicle construction or

[00:21:18] in vehicle types can be read from the vehicle family tree.

[00:21:23] Tobias: I also have a very funny, how shall I put it,

[00:21:29] small, like a puppet theater, you could almost call it. But that's what it is

[00:21:34] also my simulation game and Manfred maybe if you could tell us again briefly about

[00:21:39] this simulation game again. Manfred: Yes, you'd have to expand a bit on that

[00:21:44] and that is that the fire department has always endeavored to be [00:21:49] standard,

[00:21:49] to create standardized procedures, operations and to train people in this direction

[00:21:57] direction. So in the military, the drill and in the fire department it was

[00:22:01] then the training so that they know what has to happen in the field. Then there's

[00:22:05] these command words, then there are the drill guidelines and this

[00:22:10] simulation is a good example of how you can theoretically set up a mission

[00:22:15] can be set up. Different situations of this simulation game is, if you imagine it like this

[00:22:20] are different houses, are different fire department props that are

[00:22:25] all have to be used in the same way as in reality. That means you can

[00:22:31] the suction hose to the pump, so you can attach the firefighting mannequins or the

[00:22:38] firefighters, who are also depicted there, with various items of equipment

[00:22:43] and then simulate a real operation. So you can also

[00:22:47] theory or in winter or when you can't practise outside,

[00:22:51] the simulation offers the opportunity to train the firefighters and that's possible

[00:22:56] then continues until today in the firefighting school, where you can really

[00:23:00] hand and then also the theoretical lessons in the

[00:23:05] classroom and outside the real lessons or the lessons on the

[00:23:12] thing afterwards. I can try, I have to

[00:23:16] test it first, but I think if I can get it together for our listeners, I'll be able to do it

[00:23:19] listeners, I'll try to maybe include a picture of this simulation game

[00:23:22] to include. Now we've just talked a lot about the exhibits.

[00:23:27] Matthias, you also mentioned at the beginning that we don't have

[00:23:32] the space, the room to collect these items. That means, on the one hand

[00:23:38] always the question of where do we get the items, where are they stored and there

[00:23:42] is, of course, or I would like to ask Manfred again about your

[00:23:47] position or your work, let's say, in the field of fire department history.

[00:23:53] Would you like to tell us briefly how that came about?

[00:23:59] Manfred: Yes, generally speaking, the history of the fire department is inseparable from the

[00:24:04] history of the municipalities or the province of Tyrol.

[00:24:08] Fire brigade history can in and of itself only be told by the local fire department, i.e

[00:24:13] the local fire department can tell about itself. The agendas, which the regional fire brigade association

[00:24:19] can take on is to support the local fire departments and

[00:24:24] also to highlight developments in the fire department in Tyrol, in

[00:24:31] a compilation and then, as is the case in other

[00:24:35] provinces, in a fire department museum.

[00:24:41] My personal approach to the history of the fire department is the year

[00:24:47] 1996, when I took over the public relations work in the [00:24:53] state fire brigade association

[00:24:53] and then very quickly realized that without an archive there was no

[00:24:59] sound public relations work is very difficult.

[00:25:03] So in addition to the public relations work, until 2013 we actually

[00:25:09] the history of the fire department as a sidecar [dialect for sidecar]. in 2013, I started with the

[00:25:16] then newly elected state commander Peter Hölzl,

[00:25:22] offered to set up the fire department history department, and he agreed

[00:25:29] he agreed and since then there has been a fire department history section in the

[00:25:33] Tyrol State Fire Brigade Association. This has existed in other associations for some time

[00:25:39] and they have already done pioneering work in this direction.

[00:25:44] Our area was primarily the communications of the provincial fire brigade association

[00:25:50] Tyrol and to digitize them on "Anno", the national library on this

[00:25:56] platform, then to make them generally available. And subsequently we have

[00:26:02] created the structures, we set up subject specialists in the districts

[00:26:07] in the districts, we set up the guideline on the activities of the specialist areas, so

[00:26:15] the fire department history department in the districts in the country and in the fire departments

[00:26:21] as a guideline and implemented it in the fire department and in the

[00:26:27] next step is now to secure the digital records of the fire departments

[00:26:35] securely into the future and that's where the so-called TiGa, the

[00:26:42] Tyrolean municipal archives, for two years with an agreement between the provincial association

[00:26:50] and the municipal archives that every fire department should keep their digital documents there

[00:26:56] properly archived and that's very important to me, because there are always

[00:27:01] happens that a hard disk crash, various other problems [00:27:07

[00:27:07] other circumstances, years of work that happens in the fire department are then destroyed

[00:27:14] is destroyed or irretrievably lost again.

[00:27:21] Tobias: Perhaps even more so, TiGa in particular is one that I think is supported by the state of Tyrol,

[00:27:29] Maybe we should explain it briefly or? Matthias: So with the Tyrolean Archives Act, the

[00:27:34] municipalities have been obliged [since] 2017 to archive their documents and

[00:27:42] at the same time, the TiGa is available because not every municipality has

[00:27:48] can afford their own archive information system, there is a lot of money involved

[00:27:53] involved, of course, so the larger towns in Tyrol have their own

[00:27:56] archive information systems, as well as for the city archive with [unintelligible],

[00:28:00] I don't know if that's advertising, [laughter] product placement. No, just like we do

[00:28:06] have our own archive information system in the city archive, but

[00:28:11] there is this platform and I think it's a great thing that the fire departments

[00:28:14] can also join in or that there are partner agreements, because if

[00:28:20] the fire departments have to pay for it, that they have a budget, their own archive,

[00:28:24] because as Manfred says, a hard disk is all well and good,

[00:28:27] first of all, everyone has their own folder structure and there can always be a

[00:28:32] crash and now I have something again where I can store it in a standardized way,

[00:28:36] where it can really be found, where the successors in the

[00:28:40] Cronic or whoever is in charge of it in the fire department can find it,

[00:28:43] that is neatly archived and there is actually no money for the local

[00:28:48] fire department to take extra money to do that, you just have to

[00:28:51] just invest the working time, so to speak.

[00:28:55] Tobias: Which is also not a lot... is little.

[00:28:57] Matthias: That's why I only put that under quotation marks,

[00:29:01] but it's still something if you take from the budget or from the comradeship fund

[00:29:05] of course you would have to put money on the table again for that

[00:29:07] say, okay, we now need our own database system so that we can manage our

[00:29:10] archive material and then everyone has it somewhere and then I have

[00:29:14] the same problem and because the maintenance also does...

[00:29:17] Manfred: University of Innsbruck, they do the further development.

[00:29:20] Matthias: Exactly. So you have that, so to speak, you get a work that runs and you have to

[00:29:25] only moderately get involved and do something with it.

[00:29:28] Tobias: Did I understand that correctly, that with TiGa from the fire department

[00:29:32] only documents are recorded, so to speak, or are there also, I'll say,

[00:29:36] Inventory lists of objects or of...

[00:29:40] Manfred: Of course, inventory lists can also be included in this framework of a museum or what

[00:29:48] or what can be recorded. So you can actually also use it as an archive program

[00:29:56] of course you can also use it. If I run an archive today and the

[00:30:01] exhibits in this program, then I have them listed there and can describe them bit by bit.

[00:30:08] Tobias: Let's take it a step further, if someone from the be that because the grandfather

[00:30:14] has passed away, was otherwise in the family fire department, has remnants, is that now

[00:30:20] Documents objects, who could you contact at the fire department?

[00:30:25] Manfred: No, there are two ways. The first way is of course to the local fire department and there

[00:30:31] contact the commander there and say, I've been told by my parents, grandparents

[00:30:37] I found fire department documents and are they for the local fire department, for the archives of the

[00:30:44] local fire department, because the connection to the local fire department is there, of course.

[00:30:49] Secondly, of course, the state association is interested in all the historical documents,

[00:30:56] documents so that you can say, okay, this is historically valuable

[00:31:03] and that should definitely be preserved. So these two ways would be, on the homepage of the state fire brigade association

[00:31:12] is the fire department history section, where I am listed with my e-mail address and telephone number

[00:31:17] and I'm happy to help, so I'd like to say [laughs] around the clock, as is usual in the fire department

[00:31:24] usual, to be available when there are such requests, because every piece

[00:31:31] you have to say that what can be preserved is valuable.

[00:31:35] Matthias: So as you said at first, Tobi, we've basically had good experiences in recent years

[00:31:41] and especially through our photo blog "Innsbruck remembers" that people from the population

[00:31:47] come to us when there is no longer a connection to certain objects, photos, written material

[00:31:54] or to smaller real objects in such a way that they don't give them to the bulky waste, as was the case in earlier

[00:32:03] decades or otherwise, but that they bring them to us in the city archive

[00:32:08] and show it to us and ask if you're interested. And of course that also applies to the fire department stuff

[00:32:13] and just like Manfred said, the state association supports it,

[00:32:17] in finding a good place for the objects in question, that's what we do,

[00:32:22] because of course we can also, there has to be a connection and if something is relevant to fire department history

[00:32:28] with regard to the city of Innsbruck, we are of course happy to include it in the city archive,

[00:32:32] but we also provide support, we are in close contact with Manfred, so to speak

[00:32:38] and that they arrange for the objects to be put in a place and, above all,

[00:32:44] that they are preserved. We're lucky with the documents, with the photos,

[00:32:51] that we have the space. We have our own room in our depot in Feldstrasse,

[00:32:55] where the archive of the Innsbruck City Fire Brigade is now housed, where the core is still the archive of the professional fire department,

[00:33:02] especially the photo archive, the slide collection, the film collection, we have the operational reports from 1942 to 2009,

[00:33:08] we have service logs, but we also have a large and important legacy,

[00:33:12] namely from fire director Angermeier, which is a very large collection,

[00:33:18] just about the developments in the 70s/80s mentioned earlier

[00:33:23] and also the new paths that the fire department took.

[00:33:26] We've basically created all of the city's fire brigade units, we've received digital documents from some of them,

[00:33:34] that means you don't have to give us anything if you don't want to,

[00:33:39] but we are also happy to take scans, for example, if you are allowed to import and use them.

[00:33:43] We already have quite a few and we were recently allowed to take over some historical documents from the Wilten FF,

[00:33:52] especially with regard to the former sixth company, i.e. Wilten, or the fire brigade

[00:33:57] Sieglanger are very valuable, but there are also instructions for the Olympics from the fire department,

[00:34:04] which otherwise haven't really survived.

[00:34:06] They are from the district ski championships, the programs with the starting numbers and results lists

[00:34:12] and that corresponds nicely with the photos we have,

[00:34:15] because we have, for example, from the district ski championships on the Patscherkofel

[00:34:19] a whole series with the start numbers and now we have the list,

[00:34:23] that means you can really identify on the photo who that is,

[00:34:26] which unit and even what time he rode that day.

[00:34:29] So that's really a stroke of luck, but you can see how it all fits together,

[00:34:34] even if it gets a bit of a critical mass, the stocks that you have

[00:34:38] and the possibilities that open up.

[00:34:40] And as I said, we've basically found the solution for the documents

[00:34:47] and it will also be, or is in the room, that one, it has an information letter to

[00:34:51] the units in the city that an information event will be held,

[00:34:55] that has been a bit difficult in recent years, of course,

[00:34:57] to say once again that we are happy to archive things for the fire departments,

[00:35:02] and to find arrangements if it cannot be preserved in the unit itself,

[00:35:08] so that it simply doesn't get lost.

[00:35:10] But of course we have a certain problem when it comes to objects,

[00:35:15] as mentioned at the beginning, a beam pipe alone is not the problem

[00:35:19] or a breathing apparatus, but then you do want to depict the development

[00:35:23] and at some point you simply run out of space when you start talking about sprayers, vehicles

[00:35:29] or even just trailers.

[00:35:31] And that's certainly still a big challenge,

[00:35:34] whereas [a knock can be heard]... Tobias in the background: Knock on wood. Matthias: ...maybe [laughs] we're closer to a solution, but we think...

[00:35:42] Tobias: Although Manfred, there are already, I'm asking you now as a representative, so to speak,

[00:35:47] for automobiles, the topic of automobiles, there's actually already an association,

[00:35:54] is it running as an association called "Der Automobil Club", I think it's called?

[00:35:57] Manfred: There are two historic vehicle clubs in Tyrol,

[00:36:03] if you like, one is the "Oldtimer Club Kitzbühel" TLFA4000

[00:36:10] and the fire department "Oldtimer Club Innsbruck".

[00:36:14] And of course you can't forget the fire departments, the old-timer fire departments,

[00:36:23] should not be forgotten.

[00:36:24] So there are quite a few fire departments that are also dedicated to history

[00:36:30] and can still accommodate a wide variety of vintage fire engines in their halls.

[00:36:37] Whereby the big criterion there is space and then sometimes money.

[00:36:45] And those are the killer arguments that fire engines use,

[00:36:51] that have survived for 60 or 70 years suddenly find themselves on the doorstep

[00:36:57] and are taken out of service and sold somewhere abroad.

[00:37:02] And of course that hurts the history of the fire department in Tyrol,

[00:37:07] because then we can no longer represent the entire development or the technical development.

[00:37:13] Should there be a move towards a fundus and museum after all,

[00:37:17] would of course be interesting to show the entire development of motorization

[00:37:23] of the fire department.

[00:37:25] Tobias: May I ask, are there any concrete... I don't know if... if it's not ready for discussion yet, but are there any concrete talks about, let's say, a center for the history of the fire department?

[00:37:38] Or is there still... Manfred: There are, of course, talks about the formation of the fire department history department,

[00:37:46] It is of course also a central point to be able to present the things that are preserved.

[00:37:56] Then there's a master's thesis on a fire department museum in Tyrol,

[00:38:02] where some data and core data can be read out.

[00:38:08] And there are always discussions with the provincial commander,

[00:38:12] but also with politicians, like in Innsbruck,

[00:38:16] to find a way to realize this in Tyrol.

[00:38:22] And hope dies last, I'm quite sure that it's simply necessary,

[00:38:31] to continue telling this story.

[00:38:35] Firefighting is a success story, it's a story that is more burning today,

[00:38:41] than ever before.

[00:38:43] Firefighting is simply in the middle of life and always has been.

[00:38:47] So if we look back 150 years, 165 years, the fire department has always been right in the middle of things.

[00:38:54] Well, they've always had to deal with problems of organization and acceptance at the beginning

[00:39:03] and was then accepted very quickly.

[00:39:05] And it's the same today. The demands, they don't stop.

[00:39:09] And I think that presenting it is simply very important and will be more and more important in the future,

[00:39:16] that this form or this operational organization is also given a place,

[00:39:23] to present their history.

[00:39:25] Tobias: I think, Manfred, you've just spoken the perfect closing words for our program.

[00:39:30] I don't think there's anything more to add.

[00:39:32] And I would say thank you again at the end for your time, Manfred, Matthias.

[00:39:38] And I'll see you in the next podcast.

[00:39:42] [Outro music]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulated]

[00:00:07] Boris: "At the time of the snowfalls". Special 2025.

[00:00:14] There is a gaping hole at the center of Hanno Millesi's novel "In the Time of Snowfall",

[00:00:22] that inexplicably allows the wall of the protagonist Rainer's living room to become permeable.

[00:00:30] No one seems to be responsible for its creation.

[00:00:36] Not even a member of the Nolde family living on the other side.

[00:00:42] Everyone involved is so taken aback by the sudden crumbling of the familiar barrier,

[00:00:50] that at first they can't think of anything better than to conceal the damage,

[00:00:56] instead of finding out about its cause or even repairing it.

[00:01:02] As the living room wall continues to deteriorate, the state of being overwhelmed becomes more and more intense.

[00:01:11] Soon there is basically just a hole that allows views in both directions.

[00:01:17] With this supposedly only deviation from the normal state of a fading wall, Hanno Millesi creates

[00:01:26] creates a narrative situation that incidentally provides insights into current social conditions.

[00:01:35] Rainer, who has just gone through a separation and is taking a career break,

[00:01:41] is constantly trying to maintain a sustainable assessment of his surreal present.

[00:01:48] He does this by trying to distinguish the real problems from the apparent ones based on his news consumption.

[00:01:58] The increasing inability to form an adequate picture of his immediate surroundings,

[00:02:04] is thus further irritated by the uncertain world situation,

[00:02:09] even though the warning threats seem so far away.

[00:02:14] Hanno Millesi's unagitated and entertaining chamber play heads unerringly towards a climax,

[00:02:23] in which the individual's inability to form a picture of an over-complex world becomes clear,

[00:02:30] mingles pleasurably with social problems, with isolation, the dwindling of corrective mechanisms

[00:02:38] and the overwhelming flood of information.

[00:02:41] Zur Zeit der Schneefälle is a finely drawn parable on the excessive demands of the digital Biedermeier of our present. [Intro music]

[00:03:04] Boris: Hello and welcome back to "Vorwort Kurz und Schmerzlos", today with Hanno Millesi

[00:03:11] and my name is Boris Schön. Yes, Hanno, nice to have you here.

[00:03:16] As always, I would like to start by asking you to introduce yourself to our guests.

[00:03:21] Hanno Millesi: Hello, hello Boris. Hello, everyone listening. My name is Hanno Millesi.

[00:03:27] I'm a writer and I live in Vienna.

[00:03:31] Boris: I'm going to start with a jump into your biography and say that you actually come more from the field of visual arts

[00:03:44] and then at some point you decided to go into literature. Is that true or how can you say that?

[00:03:50] Hanno Millesi: I wouldn't necessarily say that. I basically come from the field of artistic work.

[00:03:58] As a very young person, I was actually initially enthusiastic about film, although I was more interested in, let's say, artistically advanced film.

[00:04:08] I got into it as a schoolboy, then made the decision in the course of my youth,

[00:04:16] to do something with art and I was interested in all art forms, including music, visual art and literature.

[00:04:26] And then, when I was 18, I decided to enrol in art history because I had the opportunity to study it

[00:04:35] and then I didn't really know what else to do, i.e. what other specific subject I should choose

[00:04:41] and then I tried all sorts of things and ended up with literature relatively soon,

[00:04:48] because that was the art form that seemed to suit me best, I'll say.

[00:04:55] But I'm still interested in all other art forms and actually draw from them, because you said thematically,

[00:05:03] I actually draw something like motifs or certain inspirational situations from other art forms.

[00:05:11] And I also have a second track alongside literature, which I perhaps don't pursue with the same enthusiasm,

[00:05:18] but also very seriously, namely that I make collages, which I see as a kind of pictorial text work, where it flows together a little.

[00:05:29] So I'm interested in pictures, for example. And pictures come

[00:05:32] actually appear in my literature again and again, I think, and that's confirmed to me.

[00:05:37] I'm reminded, let's say, that there's always a situation tableau, someone recently called it,

[00:05:43] in my stories, so to speak, where I stop and describe things, so to speak, which can then be seen as pictorial.

[00:05:51] But it's literature, it's more of a motif for me, it's a different approach,

[00:05:56] than you would use in painting or sculpture or something.

[00:06:03] Boris: What is the essential difference for you between literature as art and visual art, for example?

[00:06:14] Hanno Millesi: Well, actually in the material, the material in literature is language and in the respective artistic forms it can also be language theoretically,

[00:06:24] it will also flow together, but it can also be a series, or object art or sculpture.

[00:06:31] I rather see, for me it's a very similar work, so to speak, a very similar intention,

[00:06:39] but that it uses different materials and these materials then require a different approach.

[00:06:46] And so I say, let's say that the craftsmanship is not the same for all art forms.

[00:06:52] There's also conceptual art, for example, where text plays just as big a role,

[00:06:58] as in literature, even if it is used differently.

[00:07:01] So I actually only see it in the material.

[00:07:04] Boris: Now you're a guest in the city library with your, let's say, current work of art, your latest book,

[00:07:11] tonight on stage, "Zur Zeit der Schneefälle" is the name of the new novel.

[00:07:16] Your how many books, roughly?

[00:07:19] Hanno Millesi: You've got me on the wrong foot, but since you said approximately, I would say,

[00:07:25] it's about the fifth novel and in between there are, there have been small volumes of stories or something.

[00:07:32] Boris: How long can one imagine that you sit on a book until you've written it?

[00:07:36] Hanno Millesi: It varies a bit, so basically I'm a hard worker, I work a lot,

[00:07:44] and very long, or not necessarily long, but I work on a lot of material for a book

[00:07:48] and then maybe only use 40% of it for the final version, that's one form,

[00:07:54] that I have to write things first so that I can cross them out again and do them differently, so to speak.

[00:08:03] And basically I would say that I deal with the topic for about two years.

[00:08:10] But there are some that work a bit faster

[00:08:14] and others that are a bit more complex and a bit that have to hang, for example,

[00:08:19] where it's good to leave it for a few months and then get back to it,

[00:08:25] simply to get a certain distance. And there are those that are carried out in one go.

[00:08:32] That can be the case, but you can't really plan that, at least I can't, that's sometimes the case,

[00:08:37] It depends on the motive or the situation you've set yourself.

[00:08:41] Sometimes it comes out of you quite quickly and sometimes it requires a bit of thought

[00:08:47] and then it has to be rebuilt, which brings us back to the architecture, for example, which also plays a role,

[00:08:53] how is it put together and not where do you get in and where is an emergency exit or where can you look out?

[00:09:01] and where can you close the door.

[00:09:03] Boris: Now you're sitting with me in the podcast conversation and the podcast is also a digital medium.

[00:09:10] Basically, your book is about a hole that appears in a wall.

[00:09:17] And then it says, without wanting to explain the plot any further,

[00:09:23] but then on the publisher's page, it says, "At the time of the snowfalls" is a finely drawn parable

[00:09:31] on the excessive demands of the digital Biedermeier of our present day.

[00:09:36] And now I just wanted to ask you, first of all.

[00:09:38] How do you like this formulation yourself? Do you find it coherent? What is a digital Biedermeier for you?

[00:09:43] I've already researched it a bit, but what do you associate with it? Emotionally, perhaps?

[00:09:49] Hanno Millesi: Well, I didn't write that sentence, but I think it's just an attempt to summarize a not entirely uncomplex story.

[00:09:58] And I find it interesting. It sounds like something to me and I think that Biedermeier is a very good term.

[00:10:04] We don't want to overdo it now, it's historical, but let's say the cliché that we sometimes associate with Biedermeier,

[00:10:10] withdrawing into your own four walls.

[00:10:14] This hole in a wall between two apartments is, so to speak, at the center of the action in my book.

[00:10:28] And there is also a plot, which is almost a puzzling story, so to speak,

[00:10:36] a story where it's about, and I don't want to spoil it or anything, where it's about a missing picture and that will then somehow...

[00:10:42] And this story, this plot is, so to speak, decoupled from the events of my protagonists,

[00:10:49] They follow it themselves via the media.

[00:10:52] They find out about it first from news programs, so to speak, and later from websites or newsgroups,

[00:10:58] about this phenomenon, about this story.

[00:11:03] They are also dependent on what information they get.

[00:11:07] They depend on whether it's the official news or whether it becomes more and more dubious.

[00:11:14] And in this case, my protagonists are to this story as we readers are to the protagonists in my book.

[00:11:23] We don't follow what someone tells them.

[00:11:26] And that's in the digital realm.

[00:11:28] And so I find this formulation that the digital is actually something that functions as the outside world.

[00:11:33] That's what's happening in the world, what these people sitting in their apartments are experiencing.

[00:11:39] And in that respect I find this sentence, I couldn't make such sentences, but that, I use language differently.

[00:11:46] And I don't find it unokay.

[00:11:48] Boris: It brings a certain plasticity to it.

[00:11:51] Hanno Millesi: In a certain way.

[00:11:52] And it's actually difficult to summarize that.

[00:11:54] I have to admit that honestly.

[00:11:55] Well, because this second story is usually left out a bit,

[00:12:00] because the focus is on these protagonists who have to deal with this phenomenon of a hole in their living room wall,

[00:12:07] so between two apartments, mind you, otherwise it wouldn't be so bad or so strange

[00:12:11] and wouldn't trigger so many changes in their everyday life.

[00:12:15] And this second story plays out like this, it's like decoupled.

[00:12:18] That was also the idea in the in the structure, of this book, that sort of the, I don't want to say crime story,

[00:12:24] but something like that, this suspense plot is taken to another level, so to speak.

[00:12:31] Namely shifted to a digital level.

[00:12:34] And so.

[00:12:36] And that's not so easy.

[00:12:38] I've noticed it again and again when people ask me what the book is about,

[00:12:41] then I have to, yes, and then you mustn't forget that there's a second level.

[00:12:44] And I think that summarizes it quite well.

[00:12:47] Boris: So in the novel it's the case that Rainer, the protagonist I would say,

[00:12:54] gets his news from the radio and television to a certain extent.

[00:13:01] Now I'm confronted with this, with this topic of being at home,

[00:13:06] and being supplied with information.

[00:13:08] It seems to you that the amount of information you get from all over the world all the time,

[00:13:14] also this category, that you can constantly get breaking news on your smartphone, for example.

[00:13:21] You have to tune in, but there are always breaking news.

[00:13:24] That changes your sense of reality?

[00:13:28] Hanno Millesi: I think it changes your sense of reality.

[00:13:33] I do believe that.

[00:13:35] It's also added a new facet of reality, so to speak.

[00:13:39] And I, by the way, this consideration of which realities we find ourselves in,

[00:13:45] is an essential theme of my fundamental work.

[00:13:48] It comes up again and again, because I also do artistic work, for example

[00:13:53] as my own reality parallel to the real reality.

[00:13:58] And I want to invent a new reality or a parallel reality,

[00:14:03] in which I want to achieve something so that people in the real reality read it

[00:14:08] and then maybe draw some conclusions or think of something.

[00:14:11] So I do believe that, but I believe that it will actually go on and on

[00:14:16] and it's a process that will never stop.

[00:14:20] And I can't be skeptical about that, for me it's an evolution, that's what happens.

[00:14:26] I do believe that there are addictive factors, of course.

[00:14:31] And that's also the case and I also feel that I'm susceptible to it,

[00:14:36] that you then, I know it a bit, that you then, because it's always available,

[00:14:41] you always want to know and then you miss it and oh dear.

[00:14:44] You know, I can imagine that, I'm not a real junkie when it comes to that,

[00:14:49] but I can imagine that very well.

[00:14:51] And to some extent I feel that too, and of course that's blatantly exploited by news providers, so to speak.

[00:15:00] Boris: But that means you're not a future skeptic.

[00:15:03] Would I want to hear from that now maybe?

[00:15:07] Hanno Millesi: No, not really, as far as that's concerned.

[00:15:12] In my artistic work, I wouldn't say that now, I'm more of an observer

[00:15:18] and make certain considerations about where certain things could lead.

[00:15:24] And if you take that as a warning, it can be in there,

[00:15:29] but that's not my theme, that I'm assuming something like that,

[00:15:34] but I'm opening up a kind of game.

[00:15:36] And this hole in the wall is also, in part, the result of the situation being presented like a game manual.

[00:15:44] What would actually happen if that were the case, if a somewhat absurd situation were to enter into very orderly living conditions?

[00:15:52] What could happen now?

[00:15:54] I don't know exactly at the beginning and then it starts.

[00:15:57] And then absurd, sometimes funny, sometimes because intimacy is violated, sometimes embarrassing situations and problematic things happen, sometimes a few unpleasant things.

[00:16:11] But of course there are also positive aspects and I can see that and that's there.

[00:16:16] And when it actually becomes a text, I think everyone has to find themselves in it,

[00:16:22] whether it's what he's afraid of, what he has problems with, or what my protagonist, what he might actually like about it under certain circumstances.

[00:16:31] Boris: The question about the future also leads to a question that we have already asked a relatively large number of authors.

[00:16:39] How do you think the topic of AI - artificial intelligence - will affect literature?

[00:16:47] Hanno Millesi: It's a topic that people talk about a lot, of course, and they're always thinking about it and hearing new facets.

[00:16:53] I think, from the last few conversations, what I've thought about it, I've come to the conclusion that I believe that the weh,

[00:17:03] that what constitutes artificial labor can never be replaced by artificial intelligence because it simply works so strongly with errors and absurdities,

[00:17:16] that I don't think it's reproducible. I mean, deceptively similar things can be done, but that's already happening.

[00:17:23] The danger that I see could be that the recipients, i.e. readers or recipients of works of art, become so accustomed to them,

[00:17:33] a mass-produced aesthetic that they prefer to be served by an artificial intelligence anyway.

[00:17:40] That could be problematic. But what has always been art, I believe, can never be adequately reproduced by an artificial intelligence.

[00:17:50] Boris: Thank you very much for the interview. So, dear Hanno, and now, as always, I would like to ask you for a literature tip.

[00:17:58] Hanno Millesi: I'd love to. I have two books right now. I always read a fiction book and then a non-fiction or historical book.

[00:18:06] The fiction book would be my tip from Andrea Winkler, "Mitten am Tag", also published in spring.

[00:18:17] And the non-fiction book, so to speak, in this case an autography, Thurston Moore, frontman of the band Sonic Youth, recently published his autography,

[00:18:31] "Sonic Life", which is highly recommended. Boris: Yes, thank you very much, dear Hanno, that was a great conversation.

[00:18:38] And I'm looking forward to tonight on stage. Thank you as well.

[00:18:42] [Outro music]

[00:19:06] [Boris speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the City of Innsbruck.

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulated]

[00:00:07] [Intro music] Christina: Hello and welcome back to the preface, the podcast of the Innsbruck City Library.

[00:00:27] My name is Christina -

[00:00:29] Pia: And I'm Pia -

[00:00:30] Christina: And today we're back with the literary origin stories,

[00:00:34] the format where Pia and I tell each other an exciting story about the genesis of a novel

[00:00:40] or oeuvre about an author.

[00:00:43] And at the end you can vote on which of the stories you like better.

[00:00:48] Pia, why are you looking at your watch while I'm talking? [both laugh]

[00:00:51] Pia: [laughing] Hey, no one would have noticed now.

[00:00:55] Sorry, I wanted to see what time it is.

[00:00:57] Christina: Because it's Friday at four o'clock.

[00:01:00] Pia: You can tell. [both laugh]

[00:01:02] But we'll survive.

[00:01:05] Welcome from me too.

[00:01:07] And I can announce who won the last origin story.

[00:01:12] Attention drum roll, Christina has won.

[00:01:15] Again. [Christina: Yay!]

[00:01:17] Chrisitna:I would like to thank everyone who voted on Instagram at stadtbibliothek.innsbruck.

[00:01:24] Because that's where the ... the vote always takes place after the broadcast of our episode.

[00:01:30] Is that always possible for - I think - 12 or 24 hours.

[00:01:34] I have the exact numbers here:

[00:01:36] Namely, Bram Stoker got 75 percent of the vote.

[00:01:42] And JM Barrie, the origin story of Pia, 25 percent.

[00:01:47] Pia: Cheek, a cheek.

[00:01:49] I think you're doing something. [laughs]

[00:01:51] Christina: What am I supposed to do?

[00:01:53] I don't even have an Instagram account.

[00:01:55] Pia: [laughs] Yeah yeah, let's see ...

[00:01:57] Christina: That's because I'm so

[00:01:59] dramaturgically.

[00:02:02] You were still laughing at me.

[00:02:04] But you, dear listeners, liked it.

[00:02:07] That's what I thought.

[00:02:09] Who's going to start?

[00:02:11] Pia: You can start with that.

[00:02:14] Christina. Now I feel obliged to make it exciting again.

[00:02:18] I don't know if I can do it justice.

[00:02:21] My origin story, which I brought with me today,

[00:02:24] is about the novel "Carrie" by Stephen King.

[00:02:28] So that we know our way around, I thought,

[00:02:31] I thought I'd bring a short synopsis for "Carrie" for a change.

[00:02:35] For those of you who haven't read it yet.

[00:02:38] Or those who haven't read it for a long time.

[00:02:41] But "Carrie" is, of course, very iconic material.

[00:02:44] It was first published in the USA on April 5, 1974.

[00:02:48] A horror novel, but also a bit of a coming-of-age story,

[00:02:53] that you couldn't wish on anyone.

[00:02:57] The German first edition was published in 1977 by Wilhelm-Heyne-Verlag.

[00:03:04] "Carrie" tells the story of 16-year-old Carrie White,

[00:03:07] who grows up in a small American town.

[00:03:10] Shy, socially isolated and under the control of her strict religious mother.

[00:03:15] After years of bullying, she discovers that she has telekinetic powers.

[00:03:20] When she is publicly humiliated at the prom,

[00:03:24] she uses her powers with disastrous consequences.

[00:03:28] We all know the iconic scene with the pig's blood.

[00:03:31] Pia: Even I know that one and I've never seen the movie, [laughs] but I know that scene.

[00:03:36] Christina: Would you watch it, the movie or read the novel?

[00:03:43] Pia: I'd rather read the novel, I'm very bad at horror movies, I have to say.

[00:03:47] Christina: Because the novel is, I think, today, so it's a horror novel,

[00:03:51] but it also contains a lot of psychological elements

[00:03:55] and also a dose of social criticism, this typical high school bullying thing.

[00:04:02] And it was King's first published novel and his literary breakthrough.

[00:04:08] But how did it come about?

[00:04:11] Stephen King was a reserved, rather shy boy.

[00:04:15] He grew up in humble circumstances, in a household without a father.

[00:04:20] He had left the family when King was young.

[00:04:23] His mother worked several jobs and money was tight.

[00:04:28] But there were always books in the household.

[00:04:31] King discovered his passion for writing at an early age,

[00:04:34] first short stories, then small magazine novels that he sold to his classmates.

[00:04:39] Every story he sent to a magazine came back.

[00:04:44] But he didn't throw away the rejection letters.

[00:04:47] On the contrary, he famously hammered a big nail on the wall in his room,

[00:04:53] on which he hung every single rejection.

[00:04:56] Over time, the nail bent under the weight.

[00:05:00] Later he said that he should have switched to a bolt, [Pia laughs softly] because there were many rejections.

[00:05:06] King is 25 years old in 1973.

[00:05:10] He lives with his wife Tabitha in a small trailer in Hermon, Maine.

[00:05:16] Two small children and little money.

[00:05:18] He teaches high school English and works part-time in a laundry.

[00:05:24] The place where he writes is a cramped closet.

[00:05:28] Inside is a simple chair on which he has placed a board: his writing surface.

[00:05:34] The typewriter is old, his goal: to eventually earn enough to live from writing alone.

[00:05:41] One evening he has an idea.

[00:05:44] A girl with supernatural powers.

[00:05:47] Outsider, insecure, religiously fanatical upbringing.

[00:05:52] And then a cruel event that changes everything.

[00:05:56] But King doesn't make much progress in the book.

[00:05:59] The girl's perspective irritates him, the subject feels very alien to him.

[00:06:04] He writes three pages, then tears them off the typewriter, crumples them up and throws them in the wastepaper basket.

[00:06:10] The next day Tabitha finds the crumpled manuscript in the wastepaper basket.

[00:06:15] And she reads it and is immediately electrified.

[00:06:19] She's the one who recognizes the story's potential.

[00:06:22] Instead of criticism, she brings help.

[00:06:25] Books about women's roles, for one,

[00:06:27] Talks about her own experiences as a student.

[00:06:31] She encourages him to continue writing.

[00:06:34] Not least because she senses that there is something in the book,

[00:06:37] that is different from his previous attempts.

[00:06:40] King picks up the thread again.

[00:06:43] He finishes "Carrie" in a few weeks.

[00:06:46] When the novel is finished, he sends the manuscript to various publishers.

[00:06:50] And again he receives rejections.

[00:06:53] He got more than 30 rejections [Pia: Oh dear] for "Carrie".

[00:06:56] But he keeps at it.

[00:06:59] And then finally Double Day says, shows interest and says yes.

[00:07:04] And the advance is 2,500 dollars.

[00:07:08] That's not super much even then, but it's more than any other text before.

[00:07:14] King is relieved, but not particularly euphoric at first.

[00:07:19] The big turning point came months later when a paperback publisher

[00:07:24] secured the rights to "Carrie" for 400,000 dollars.

[00:07:28] Pia: Not bad.

[00:07:30] Christina: Yes. And that's an incredible amount of money for the 25-year-old author,

[00:07:34] who lives in this small, basically trailer park.

[00:07:38] Pia: So the rejections paid off after all.

[00:07:41] Christina:King hears the news over the phone while he's at school working.

[00:07:45] When he hangs up, he is very pale, as he says, and feels quite dazed.

[00:07:49] He goes home, finds Tabitha in the kitchen and just says:

[00:07:53] "We're out." [Pia laughs briefly]

[00:07:55] And by that he means out of the caravan, out of the lack of money, out of this life.

[00:08:00] And a new life begins for them both.

[00:08:03] But success, as I think we also know from Stephen King, also has its downsides. With him

[00:08:09] with the money, alcohol, pills and excessive writing.

[00:08:13] Keyword "The Shining", which he also deals with in a very autobiographical way.

[00:08:20] And years later, King would talk openly about that time.

[00:08:24] That's why we know about his addiction, his fears and this loss of control that he experienced after "Carrie".

[00:08:31] But also about the role his wife played,

[00:08:35] once, when she wrote "Carrie" ... encouraged him to continue writing "Carrie",

[00:08:39] and later, when he almost lost everything to his addiction.

[00:08:44] So that breakthrough began, that's one of the greatest genre writers of today.

[00:08:50] Everyone has at least heard of Stephen King.

[00:08:53] His novels are translated into every possible language in the world.

[00:08:57] But it started with that, and I think that's totally cool,

[00:09:01] that his wife pulled the paper out of the wastebasket again in this trailer

[00:09:07] and encouraged him and then told him about herself and her own perspective,

[00:09:14] which enabled him to write "Carrie".

[00:09:18] Exactly, and that's the genesis of "Carrie" by Stephen King.

[00:09:24] Pia: Really cool, I didn't know that.

[00:09:26] I've never read anything by King, so that's very interesting for me.

[00:09:29] And I also think it's funny that he actually wanted to throw that away,

[00:09:33] even though he'd already gotten so many rejections, and that was exactly what worked.

[00:09:37] Christina:Did you really not know that?

[00:09:38] Pia:No, not at all.

[00:09:39] Christina:It was so mundane for me, everyone knows the Carrie story. [laughs]

[00:09:42] Pia: [laughs] No, not me.

[00:09:44] Christina: Yeah, great.

[00:09:45] Okay, Pia, what did you bring for us?

[00:09:48] Because I don't know, I'm really curious.

[00:09:51] Pia: So, there's a fact check today.

[00:09:54] Christina: Okay.

[00:09:55] Because you claimed in the [Christina takes a startled breath] last origin story,

[00:09:59] that Bram Stoker laid the foundation for the modern vampire.

[00:10:03] And I disagree with you today.

[00:10:05] Christina: Ohhhh, exciting.

[00:10:07] Pia:The modern vampire is not 1897, that's where "Dracula" was created,

[00:10:13] but 80 years earlier.

[00:10:17] It was a dark and stormy night in 1816.

[00:10:21] On Lake Geneva in the magnificent but secluded Villa Diodati

[00:10:25] gathered some of the most brilliant

[00:10:27] and most scandalous minds of their time. - Christina: Ghosts? - Pia: Yes. [hesitates] No, not ghosts ghosts, but ... - Christina: Is that how you say it? - Pia: Yes.

[00:10:37] Christina: Okay, "ghosts of their time". - Pia: Nature itself seemed to have conspired against them. A volcanic eruption

[00:10:44] in Indonesia had darkened the skies over Europe. The days were gray, the nights

[00:10:50] unnaturally cold. In the villa, surrounded by rain and lightning, sat Lord Byron, Percy

[00:10:58] Bysshe Shelley, Mary Shelley, Claire Clairmont, that's Mary's stepsister, and a young man,

[00:11:04] who history almost forgot. - Christina: [draws in a sharp breath, excited] Oh my God, this is so exciting. I know the

[00:11:11] Mary Shelley-Frankenstein origin story, but not what's coming up. Okay, I'm

[00:11:16] really excited. - Pia:And that was John William Polidori. - Christina: Who? - Pia: Right. [both laugh] Polidori was a doctor, an

[00:11:24] ambitious but often underestimated man who served as personal physician to the famous Lord Byron.

[00:11:30] Smart, well-read, but trapped in the shadow of his charismatic employer. -christina: Obviously. - Pia: Yes,

[00:11:37] but on this night, now I would like to have sound effects [sound effect: thunderclap] [both laugh, Christina: düdüdümm!] he should create something,

[00:11:49] that would make him immortal forever. That night [sound effect: thunderclap] [Pia laughs, Christina again: düdüdümm!]

[00:11:53] Byron suggested that everyone should write their own horror story.

[00:12:05] Byron himself began a fragment about a mysterious vampire. But he left it

[00:12:11] unfinished. - Christina: Ohhh, but can I ask a question in between, how did he come up with the vampire? Do you know that?

[00:12:19] Pia: They don't know. It was just like, okay, let's all write. And he has, so vampires were

[00:12:25] already existed in folk tales before that. And then he started with this fragment,

[00:12:31] just started it. About this mysterious vampire, but he left it unfinished. And

[00:12:37] Polidori then took this fragment as inspiration and developed it further.

[00:12:42] So while Mary Shelley was working on an idea that would later become Frankenstein,

[00:12:48] Polidori began a story that would outlive himself: "The Vamprye", spelled with a "y"

[00:12:54] in that case. Incidentally, the atmosphere in the villa was not only characterized by storm and darkness

[00:12:59] characterized by storm and darkness. The group also took laudanum, an opium preparation that was used as a painkiller at the time

[00:13:05] and intoxicants at the time. Their conversations became feverish. The imagination

[00:13:10] Images. In this mixture of melancholy, excess and creative euphoria, a new kind of

[00:13:16] of horror. [Chrisitna: Uhhhhhh ...] So, now I'd like to have, [laughs] I'd like to have a nasty laugh like that, please

[00:13:22] or something. - Christina: If I didn't have any sounds to help my story last time,

[00:13:28] you'll have to do without this time too. [both laugh] - Pia: Cheeky. [Soundbite: nasty laughter]

[00:13:31] Polidori's vampire was different from the creepy but often animalistic creatures of old folk tales.

[00:13:44] He was an aristocratic seducer. Pale, charismatic, a creature that was at home in fine society

[00:13:51] and yet deadly. This vampire was in many ways like

[00:13:55] a literary version of Byron himself. - Christina: [incredulous] Of Byron? - Pia: [agreeing] Uh-huh. -christina: Did he have anything left, the doctor

[00:14:01] for Byron? - Pia:Those are the rumors. - Christina: Uh-huh. Look, as I've already discussed ...

[00:14:07] Pia: You recognized the subtext right away. [both laugh] - Christina: Ah, nice.

[00:14:10] Pia: But who was this Lord Byron who was considered the template for the first literary vampire?

[00:14:15] Christina: [incredulous] Lord Byron was the template for the first literary vampire?! - Pia: Supposedly.

[00:14:20] Christina: Yeah, so my head is exploding, that's so cool. - Pia: Lord Byron was not only a celebrated poet,

[00:14:27] but also one of the most controversial personalities of his time. He was considered eccentric, outrageous

[00:14:33] and irresistible. His affairs caused outrage and he had countless love affairs

[00:14:39] with married women, young men and allegedly even with his own half-sister

[00:14:44] Augusta Leigh. The rumors surrounding this relationship shook British society. One

[00:14:50] of his lovers described him as, and I quote, "mad, bad and dangerous to know".

[00:14:57] Christina:Oh my God, okay. [Pia laughs] Of course, you can build up an image that way.

[00:15:02] Pia: Yeah, I hope that's on his tombstone. - Christina: The literary bad boy.

[00:15:06] Pia: That's brilliant. Byron lived debauched, collected enemies and was not bound by convention

[00:15:13] stopped. In the end, he became a social outcast. 1816, the year in which

[00:15:19] he fled to Lake Geneva, was the year in which he finally left England and moved to

[00:15:24] after his scandalous separation from his wife and the increasingly loud accusations

[00:15:30] about his lifestyle and possible homosexuality, he had little choice. So he was

[00:15:36] a man who took everything life offered him and put himself in danger.

[00:15:40] Perhaps that's what Polidori recognized in him, a man who saw himself as unstoppable

[00:15:45] whose attraction was also a warning. Polidori had a lot to say about his story

[00:15:50] Polidori had not only created a new kind of vampire, he had laid the foundations for an entire genre

[00:15:55] laid the foundation. in 1819, three years after the summer in the villa,

[00:16:00] "The Vampyre" first appeared in a literary magazine, but there was a problem, the story

[00:16:04] was mistakenly attributed to Lord Byron.

[00:16:07] Christina: [clicks her tongue] He already has everything. - Pia: Exactly, I think so too. The publisher Henry Colburn recognized,

[00:16:15] what kind of commercial potential it would have if Byron wrote something like that, just

[00:16:22] also because of all the scandals surrounding him. Polidori was outraged, both he and Byron

[00:16:27] tried to clarify the true authorship, but the confusion persisted

[00:16:32] persisted. Many still believed for a long time that Byron was the author, for example

[00:16:37] none other than Johann Wolfgang von Goethe called the story Byron's best product.

[00:16:41] Christina: [regretfully] Ah, yes, he fell for fake news, Johann Wolfgang von.

[00:16:47] Pia: Polidori himself had little of the literary success, he struggled with financial difficulties

[00:16:54] and depression. he died in 1821 at the age of 25.

[00:16:58] Christina: Oh God.

[00:16:59] Pia: The circumstances of his death are not clear, the official report says he died of

[00:17:04] natural causes, but it is suspected that he committed suicide.

[00:17:09] Polidori may have died young, but his story survived. "The Vampyre" lays the foundation

[00:17:15] for later vampire stories from Bram Stoker's "Dracula" to the modern vampire stories

[00:17:20] of our time, here come your glittering vampires again from before ...

[00:17:24] Christina: [indignant] "My" glittering vampires, I have absolutely nothing to do with them. [Pia laughs]

[00:17:27] Pia: You were so excited about that last time. [laughs] What was meant to be a harmless writing game on a rainy

[00:17:32] summer evening changed literature forever.

[00:17:35] While Mary Shelley's Frankenstein became the icon of the horror novel, it was Polidori,

[00:17:40] who created the image of the elegant, deadly vampire, a figure that survives to this day.

[00:17:45] Christina:Wow, so I'm blown away. Thank you, I feel fact-checked.

[00:17:52] [laughs] Successful.

[00:17:53] Pia:Successful.

[00:17:54] Well, I find it interesting.

[00:17:57] You didn't know about Lord Byron either, just that he was the template.

[00:18:01] Christina:But that made me want to read more about Love Byron and so on.

[00:18:06] It's always funny when bad boys ...

[00:18:09] Pia:But the line is brilliant, isn't it?

[00:18:11] "Mad, bad and dangerous and dangerous to know." [laughs]

[00:18:14] Christina:Yeah, that's image building, man. [both laugh]

[00:18:16] Pia:Yeah, they already knew that back then.

[00:18:18] Christina:Yeah, that's the James Dean of the Victorian literary landscape.

[00:18:23] Pia: [smirking] Exactly.

[00:18:24] Christina: In that context, as I said, I only ever know the origin story of "Frankenstein".

[00:18:31] I think this vampire thing must have gone down like that.

[00:18:36] Pia: I also just knew at the time that Mary Shelley wrote that in that writing contest,

[00:18:39] so to speak, but never that it was the first literary

[00:18:45] vampire story came out.

[00:18:46] Christina: And you should really think that you can mention that, so funny, so

[00:18:50] really interesting.

[00:18:51] Yeah, I think, woah, this time, I'm going to have a hard time, you really didn't leave anything out

[00:18:59] calm dramaturgically today.

[00:19:00] Pia: Let's see, maybe, maybe Christina will do something again with her

[00:19:04] Posts.

[00:19:05] Christina:These are baseless insinuations, yes, I would like to keep them completely within the official framework

[00:19:09] from me.

[00:19:10] Pia: [laughs] Let's see.

[00:19:11] Christina:So of course you can vote again for the origin story that you like better

[00:19:17] you liked better, that you found more exciting or more informative or that you perhaps

[00:19:21] simply didn't know yet.

[00:19:23] Please do this on Instagram, on stadtbibliothek.innsbruck and if the voting is no longer running there

[00:19:31] you can of course also write us your favorites on post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at.

[00:19:41] We will include all the results and I don't know, if that's the case now

[00:19:45] we'll have to think about something for the loser at the end of the year.

[00:19:50] Pia: Oh God, do I have to be afraid now ... [laughs]

[00:19:52] Christina:Yes, or something nice.

[00:19:54] Pia:I think that's almost better.

[00:19:56] Christina: Yes, that the loser has to give the winner a tea ...

[00:20:03] Pia:I think I can get over that.

[00:20:06] Christina: Or a cake. [both laugh]

[00:20:08] Yes, thanks for listening.

[00:20:10] We wish you a good read and say see you next time.

[00:20:13] Don't forget to subscribe if you don't want to miss any more episodes of the foreword.

[00:20:18] Bye.

[00:20:19] Pia: Bye. [Outro music]

[00:20:20] [Pia speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part

[00:20:49] Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Pia speaks]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulated]

[00:00:07] [Intro music] Boris: Hello and welcome back to "Foreword: Short and sweet". Today with Dirk

[00:00:28] Kurbjuweit and my name is Boris Schön. Dirk Kurbjuweit, nice to have you here. May I

[00:00:35] start by asking you to briefly introduce yourself? - Dirk Kurbjuweit: Yes, thank you very much for inviting me. I'm looking forward to it

[00:00:40] pleased to be here. Yes, I'm a journalist, that's my main profession and that's where

[00:00:47] I'm editor-in-chief of "Spiegel", the German news magazine, and I live in Hamburg and

[00:00:54] in Berlin. Then I have a second profession and that is a writer. I have

[00:00:59] written ten novels, plays, screenplays. - Boris: You've been in journalism for a very long time

[00:01:05] active. So I've only done a rough search for at least 35 years or more. [Dirk Kurbjuweit: Yes.]

[00:01:11] May I ask you, in general, how has this professional activity or

[00:01:18] the profession changed over the years? It has changed a lot because of the digital

[00:01:23] media, through the Internet. Being at "Der Spiegel" used to mean being at a news magazine,

[00:01:31] a weekly magazine with a weekly rhythm. That meant we had a lot of time for research

[00:01:37] and also time to write. Today we also have a website, which is actually the

[00:01:43] center is now from our publishing house and that is very fast, faster

[00:01:48] journalism and that's very different from before. Nevertheless, we still have areas,

[00:01:54] in which we also preserve the age, in which we give our people time for research

[00:01:59] for writing, but overall I would say that everyday journalism is much more

[00:02:04] denser and much faster. - Boris: But that means that you use different

[00:02:09] techniques, whether it's for the print medium or for the digital medium? So you take

[00:02:14] you still take more time for the print medium and then it's more in-depth, you can

[00:02:18] differentiate that or is that not really the...

[00:02:21] Dirk Kurbjuweit: In general, our strategy is "digital first", so that's already, as I said, the

[00:02:26] center, the most important thing, but we actually have two paths that we pursue. One is

[00:02:31] speed and the other is called depth and speed is above all the motto for the site and

[00:02:39] depth is the motto for the magazine, but it also works the other way round, so to speak, that we naturally

[00:02:45] also have deep texts on the page and generally everything that goes into the magazine for the

[00:02:51] magazine also goes on the page.

[00:02:53] Now add to that the fact that there is a digital version: How do you deal with that?

[00:02:58] that it seems to me that more and more traditional media are no longer being used by many people

[00:03:04] are no longer being used by many people, but they're getting their information in a different way, and you can always see a bit of

[00:03:09] this issue of fake news and dubious sources or sources that have not been clearly researched

[00:03:15] sources ... Does that also have an effect on the journalistic activity or do you say, so to speak, we are doing

[00:03:21] our thing and whoever consumes it gets quality and how can we imagine that?

[00:03:27] Dirk Kurbjuweit: Yes, first of all, yes, so whoever reads us gets quality, but of course we have to

[00:03:33] also be where the readers are, and especially with the younger ones, that's just

[00:03:38] the social networks and that's why we also have a presence on Instagram and TikTok,

[00:03:44] now recently also WhatsApp and so on and we also report there and of course how

[00:03:51] you say, that's also an area of fake news, especially the network world, and that's where

[00:03:58] we counter that and say here inform yourselves with us, we do thorough research, we have

[00:04:05] fact checkers and you can rely on our information.

[00:04:09] Boris: You told me earlier, you are the editor-in-chief of "Der Spiegel", now, how

[00:04:14] can one imagine this job? You won't just be writing texts, you

[00:04:17] you'll also be doing a lot of coordinating work, the editorial line or what are the areas,

[00:04:22] that you all ...?

[00:04:25] Dirk Kurbjuweit: Writing, that's actually the smaller task for me now, but I have a

[00:04:29] big editorial office, 600 people work there and of course my day starts with reading

[00:04:37] and then one conference follows the next and we have a morning conference,

[00:04:42] where we discuss the topics of the day and then of course there are many meetings where we

[00:04:48] discuss such things as strategies, how do we continue, also the leaf line, how do we

[00:04:55] how we react to certain developments and the day is very busy from morning to night,

[00:04:59] very dense and it's mainly meetings with people, conferences, one-on-one conversations,

[00:05:04] actually you could say that I talk and listen from morning to night, that's my job

[00:05:10] job.

[00:05:11] Boris: You're here with us today because you're organizing the Innsbruck Prose Festival, the 23rd edition.

[00:05:16] edition with your reading.

[00:05:18] Now, when you say your day is so full, you are a writer, as you also

[00:05:24] you said, when do you write?

[00:05:25] Is it a weekend, night or vacation activity or how can we imagine that?

[00:05:31] Dirk Kurbjuweit: Yes, as editor-in-chief I don't get to do it that often, of course, but I do sometimes take time for myself

[00:05:37] evenings when I write.

[00:05:41] For me, my colleagues sometimes don't understand that, because for me, this

[00:05:45] writing is also a form of relaxation, because everyday life in the "Spiegel" is very, very intense

[00:05:51] and it's not so easy for me to get out of it in the evening and relax.

[00:05:56] But when I switch to a novel world, I can relax because I'm in a different world

[00:06:02] different world.

[00:06:03] The mirror is very, very

[00:06:04] far away, no longer thinking about what happened during the day

[00:06:07] or what will happen the next day, but I live

[00:06:10] with my characters in the world of the novel and in doing so

[00:06:13] I can relax very well and then I make

[00:06:15] a retreat once or twice a year for one or two weeks

[00:06:18] weeks and then I live completely in this novel world

[00:06:22] and so I can actually combine that quite well

[00:06:24] together quite well. - Boris: Now you're saying that it's a kind of

[00:06:28] of recovery from your work, but I

[00:06:31] it's hard to imagine when you work so much

[00:06:33] working in journalism, that then

[00:06:35] not also have an influence perhaps on topics

[00:06:37] or ideas or anything like that from the, I

[00:06:41] don't know, can you speak of a bread-and-butter profession

[00:06:44] maybe in relation to the writing profession

[00:06:48] profession. Is there an influence there?

[00:06:52] Dirk Kurbjuweit: Definitely. For me, journalism is

[00:06:55] actually the umbilical cord to the world. About the

[00:06:58] journalism I am supplied very directly with

[00:07:01] information, with what's happening in the world

[00:07:05] happening in the world and that influences my thinking

[00:07:07] very strongly and from this thinking

[00:07:11] often also novels. So many of my novels

[00:07:13] also have as a background, as an underground

[00:07:17] political themes of the time and in that respect I would

[00:07:21] say that my secondary profession as a writer

[00:07:25] is already strongly influenced by my

[00:07:28] journalistic profession. - Boris: If you now biographically

[00:07:30] go all the way back, both were from the beginning

[00:07:32] there from the beginning or was there a sequence

[00:07:35] first journalist, then novelist, writer

[00:07:39] or apart from what they published

[00:07:41] have published, you tend to write maybe

[00:07:44] literary and long before the first

[00:07:46] publication comes?

[00:07:47] Dirk Kurbjuweit: Yes, there was a change. So I actually

[00:07:51] started with literary attempts, so to speak

[00:07:54] already as a pupil at grammar school

[00:07:56] wrote short stories, I had one

[00:07:58] early passion for literature, then I started [00:08:02

[00:08:02] but then I didn't really dare to

[00:08:04] to become a writer, that seemed to me somehow

[00:08:06] too big, too far away somehow, now I'm also

[00:08:11] didn't exactly grow up in front of a bookshelf,

[00:08:14] so it was already a distant world for me

[00:08:17] and yes, but I was also interested in politics,

[00:08:20] so I became a journalist and then

[00:08:23] so in my late 20s I put all my courage

[00:08:26] together and then I also had

[00:08:28] the journalistic work would certainly be

[00:08:31] self-confidence and then I took the

[00:08:34] risked writing the first novel.

[00:08:36] Boris: What makes a good novel for you?

[00:08:40] Dirk Kurbjuweit: There has to be a pull and that my ... so that

[00:08:43] I don't mean an external tension, so to speak

[00:08:45] in the sense of a thriller or other suspense,

[00:08:49] but simply a pull that immerses you,

[00:08:52] high above all into a world of language

[00:08:54] and one that sees the world through the eyes, so to speak

[00:08:58] of the writer, of the female writer

[00:09:00] and that pulls you in, sparks a maelstrom,

[00:09:05] that you don't want to get out of it, that you're like

[00:09:08] in such a whirlpool that you are driven further and further

[00:09:11] and for me that's good literature, that's what

[00:09:14] I recognize it, I'm in the maelstrom and I find it

[00:09:17] difficult to close the book or not, but as I said,

[00:09:20] it has nothing to do with suspense at all,

[00:09:22] but only with language, with points of view,

[00:09:25] with figures of speech.

[00:09:26] Boris: Now we have experienced, so to speak,

[00:09:30] your everyday working life, then when you write,

[00:09:33] when do you still read?

[00:09:35] Dirk Kurbjuweit: Yes, I like to read when I'm traveling, because I can also give you

[00:09:40] still traveling and then I would say the

[00:09:44] the last half hour or sometimes hour

[00:09:49] of the day is reserved for literature, for reading

[00:09:52] so I don't really like to fall asleep,

[00:09:55] without having read another novel.

[00:09:58] Boris:And in bed with a hardcover or at the table

[00:10:02] ... or with an e-reader or ... ?

[00:10:05] Dirk Kurbjuweit: Well, I don't use an e-reader at all, so I

[00:10:08] would like to have this book, also haptically,

[00:10:11] also want to hear the turning of the pages and the

[00:10:16] ... is also a sensual experience for me, a

[00:10:19] a bound or a printed book.

[00:10:21] So yes, I go to bed with, yes, often with a hardcover

[00:10:26] and then read until I'm so tired that I can't go on. [Boris laughs]

[00:10:31] Boris:Yes, thank you very much for the interview.

[00:10:33] Finally, as always, my question, do you have a book,

[00:10:36] that you can recommend to our listeners?

[00:10:39] Dirk Kurbjuweit: Yes, I've just read the novel "The Midaq Alley"

[00:10:43] by Nagib Mahfuz, an Egyptian writer

[00:10:47] writer who won the Nobel Prize for Literature

[00:10:52] and which I had not read before and there is exactly

[00:10:54] that's exactly what happened. After three pages there was this pull,

[00:10:58] I was in this well, this alley in

[00:11:03] in the old city of Cairo in the 40s

[00:11:06] and there's not really a continuous plot,

[00:11:09] there are stories of the inhabitants there and

[00:11:13] I read it breathlessly and then for too long

[00:11:17] at night, then I'm just a bit more tired in the morning,

[00:11:20] but it was so very, very strong and I can

[00:11:24] recommend to a listener.

[00:11:27] Boris: Yes, thank you very much for being our guest

[00:11:29] and I'm already looking forward to this evening

[00:11:32] with you on stage.

[00:11:33] Dirk Kurbjuweit: I'm looking forward to it too, thank you.

[00:11:35] [Outro music] [Boris speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of Stadtstimmen,

[00:12:05] the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Boris speaks]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulated]

[00:00:06] [Intro music] Shelly: Hello and welcome to the preface, the podcast of the Innsbruck City Library

[00:00:26] and today again with a new episode of Teatime.

[00:00:29] My name is Shelly and sitting across from me is my dear colleague, Jaci.

[00:00:34] Jaci, Greek mountain tea.

[00:00:38] Jaci: Yes.

[00:00:39] Shelly: Also known as Greek vervain, has been used by shepherds since ancient times as a

[00:00:44] Tea, did you know that?

[00:00:46] Jaci: Nope.

[00:00:47] It's not a tea blend, it's an herb from the family of

[00:00:52] Labiates.

[00:00:53] Jaci: Labiates.

[00:00:54] Shelly: Shepherds used to drink it as mountain tea, as a nightcap

[00:01:03] and that has a calming effect and the regions of origin, so in its regions of origin

[00:01:11] It is still used in folk medicine for colds or stomach problems.

[00:01:17] Jaci: Very exciting.

[00:01:18] You only know vervain from "The Vampire Diaries", where it's used as a defense against vampires

[00:01:23] is used. [laughs]

[00:01:24] Shelly: What are you drinking today? Vervain? [Jaci laughs]

[00:01:26] Jaci: I'm having lemon and ginger tea today.

[00:01:29] Shelly: And I'm having, what am I having?

[00:01:33] "Your Serenity."

[00:01:34] Jaci: So it's like Greek mountain tea for serenity.

[00:01:38] Shelly: Right, for serenity.

[00:01:40] [Jaci clicks her tongue; soundbite: tea is poured, stirred, sipped]

[00:01:41] Shelly: So, what's the deal today, Jaci?

[00:01:51] Jaci: How Shelly has already given us a good start with her great Greek mountain tea

[00:01:57] today is about Greek Mythology Retellings, that is, retellings of Greek

[00:02:04] mythologies and dear Shelley has always picked out a definition for us.

[00:02:08] Shelly: Of course we did.

[00:02:10] The reinterpretations of Greek mythology in English "Greek Mythology Retelling", so,

[00:02:18] are a literary genre in which stories from classical Greek mythology are

[00:02:23] are retold and placed in either a modern or futuristic context

[00:02:29] are told.

[00:02:30] Jaci: Exactly.

[00:02:31] And this whole Greek mythology started with The Man Himself: Homer.

[00:02:37] Shelly: The Man or [editor's note: grammatical plural] The Man, we don't know, Homer is a bit of a fuzzy character there

[00:02:44] in the story.

[00:02:45] Jaci: Right.

[00:02:46] There's the famous Homeric question that's all about who Homer was, if

[00:02:50] he really existed because it's all quite illogical that one man could have written the "Iliad" and

[00:02:57] the "Odyssey" because the two works were actually written about 200 years apart,

[00:03:02] I think, and nobody could really be that old.

[00:03:07] But I mean, that was the Greeks, a lot of things were different then. [Shelly smirks]

[00:03:10] But exactly.

[00:03:11] But how exactly did it start?

[00:03:14] Shelly also has some background information for us.

[00:03:17] Shelly: Exactly.

[00:03:18] So, Homer, as I said, wrote these two epics, among other things.

[00:03:22] He then, I think, wrote poetry and poems like that, songs of praise to

[00:03:30] the gods.

[00:03:31] But he became famous with these epics, [both laugh] I don't know how to put it ...

[00:03:37] Exactly.

[00:03:38] And that's the "Iliad" and the "Odyssey".

[00:03:40] And in the "Iliad" and the "Odyssey" he has this whole world of gods, the Greek world of gods

[00:03:48] but integrated it into the literary and cultural mainstream, so to speak.

[00:03:54] He brought together a reasonably coherent representation, so he also gave the gods

[00:04:04] character traits to the gods, they are very humanized in Homer, which is quite

[00:04:09] unique in religion.

[00:04:13] You wouldn't humanize them like that in other religions

[00:04:19] ascribed to them.

[00:04:20] Jaci: What I always find so cool when you know that, the "Iliad" consists of 24 cantos

[00:04:27] and the reason they're called songs is because that was at the very beginning before it was written down, of course

[00:04:32] because our modern writing and books did not exist at that time,

[00:04:37] it was all recited orally by singers.

[00:04:40] And I find that totally impressive when you imagine how thick the "Iliad" was as a

[00:04:46] book is here, how much text they used to have to memorize and how

[00:04:51] long it must have taken, it was always several evenings, which is why

[00:04:55] often in the books it's so cliffhanger-like that the people come back the next evening

[00:05:00] to listen.

[00:05:01] But I just think it's so cool when you imagine how it all started back then, so to speak

[00:05:05] started back then.

[00:05:06] Shelly: Acting back then is certainly not an easy job.

[00:05:11] Right now I only have a small overview of how this world of the gods is structured

[00:05:17] is.

[00:05:18] We have these twelve Olympia, the twelve Olympian gods, who live on Olympus

[00:05:23] sitting on top of this mountain and looking down at the people.

[00:05:26] There we have Zeus, the father of the gods, his wife, Hera, the goddess of marriage and the

[00:05:33] family, Poseidon the god of the sea, Demeter, the goddess of harvest and agriculture,

[00:05:40] Athena, the goddess of wisdom, strategy and war, Apollo, the god of light

[00:05:45] music, the arts and prophecy, Artemis, the goddess of hunting and nature,

[00:05:50] of wild animals, Ares, the god of war, Aphrodite, the goddess of love and beauty, Hephaestus,

[00:05:57] the god of fire, forging and technology, Hermes, the messenger of the gods, Hestia,

[00:06:03] the goddess of hearth fire and domestic life.

[00:06:06] So these are the twelve main gods, who play a major role in the "Iliad" and

[00:06:13] in the "Odyssey" and then there are the primordial gods, who represent the

[00:06:20] fundamental forces of the universe and have existed since the beginning of the world.

[00:06:26] So they kind of lay the foundation for everything that came after.

[00:06:30] That's Chaos, Gaia, Uranos, Tartaros and Eros and then there's the Titans, Kronos,

[00:06:39] Zeus, for example, emerged from the head of Kronos?

[00:06:45] Jaci: Well, Cronus was afraid that Zeus would overthrow him and so he ate him and Gaia ate him

[00:06:49] then, I think, rescued him again and then sort of pulled him out of Kronos again.

[00:06:55] Shelly: Yeah, that's right.

[00:06:56] Jaci: Athena appeared from the mind of Zeus, that's what happened.

[00:06:59] Shelly: Yeah, that's what happened, exactly.

[00:07:00] And before the Olympian gods, the Titans, Kronos, Rheia, Okeanos, Hyperion,

[00:07:05] [unintelligible] and I can't pronounce, Mnemosyne, [Jaci: Yes, sounds right], and then there's just

[00:07:15] other gods and deities and also demigods and heroes, as well as Heracles

[00:07:20] or Hercules, as we know it from the Disney adaptation, [laughs] Perseus, Achilles [emphasizes] and Theseus.

[00:07:28] Exactly.

[00:07:29] And why did I emphasize Achilles now, shall we do some foreshadowing?

[00:07:33] Jaci: May I just very briefly, I think you've forgotten one god now because he's not

[00:07:37] one of the Olympian gods, Hades, is the god of the underworld.

[00:07:40] Shelly: Yeah, he's with the other important gods and deities.

[00:07:43] Jaci: Okay, just because he's kind of a brother of Zeus and Poseidon, so he belongs to the gods of the underworld

[00:07:47] actually already belongs to the Olympian gods, but he's kind of the lord of the underworld, that's why

[00:07:51] he doesn't live on Olympus, but he's still quite important.

[00:07:54] Shelly: Yes, and then there's Dionysus, Hecate, Asclepius.

[00:07:59] Nike and Eros, which I haven't mentioned yet, but of course they're also important.

[00:08:03] But the episode shouldn't last longer than half an hour ... [laughs]

[00:08:05] Jaci: Sorry.

[00:08:06]

[00:08:07] We've basically recorded 10 minutes now and just talked about the gods. [laughs]

[00:08:10] The question that you ask yourself now, of course, when you know everything about the

[00:08:15] gods and so on, it's of course mega complicated to assimilate all that and to

[00:08:19] and then you ask yourself why these myths still fascinate us today

[00:08:25] actually fascinate us today?

[00:08:26] If it's actually quite complicated and quite structured, everything, because

[00:08:30] if you don't know something, you often can't see through it at all.

[00:08:34] What I've worked out for myself is why they're still so fascinating and

[00:08:41] why they're being retold now is that it allows readers to experience these

[00:08:46] familiar stories that you might already know from childhood or something like that with a

[00:08:51] fresh perspective now, so you grow up more, so to speak, and then you're interested in

[00:08:56] one myth like the other, and then you manage to do it with the retellings

[00:09:03] to put these stories in a new light.

[00:09:06] And what's also a big trend now in connection with Greek mythology retellings

[00:09:13] is also feminist retellings, where marginalized voices come to the fore

[00:09:17] come to the fore.

[00:09:18] So not just women, but also heroes and gods who have been forgotten

[00:09:23] or simply gods of groups that are now ... for example the nymphs,

[00:09:29] they weren't so highly regarded back then and now more voices are being heard again, simply

[00:09:32] also as a marginalized group.

[00:09:34] These new narratives also combine classical education with modern literature, so to speak

[00:09:41] literature, which simply offers an interesting mix and it is simply

[00:09:46] exciting to read and to see how a myth changes when it is adapted to our time

[00:09:51] time or is simply told from our modern perspective

[00:09:56] is told.

[00:09:57] And if many people are now thinking, yes, okay, because the trend has been around for a long time

[00:10:02] everyone is right.

[00:10:03] So this isn't a new trend that's just come about because of Instagram or something.

[00:10:08] This trend of retelling has been around for centuries, millennia.

[00:10:12] So we all know that the Romans also have gods that are very similar to the Greeks.

[00:10:17] So that's where it started a bit.

[00:10:19] Shelly: Exactly.

[00:10:20] So you have a very [emphasizes] rough overview of this recurring fascination

[00:10:27] with Greek mythology and like you said, starting with

[00:10:32] the Romans.

[00:10:33] They were the fan-girls-and-boys number one of the Greeks [both laugh] and they actually have

[00:10:40] copied this world of gods 1 to 1 and just gave them different names.

[00:10:44] The poets of Golden Latinity, I'll say Cicero, Ovid, Virgil, also have

[00:10:51] took up this material and after the Romans were no longer a topic, they came to the

[00:11:00] Middle Ages and there the Greek material was actually largely forgotten

[00:11:05] at least in Western Europe and is more popular in the Byzantine East and in the Arab world

[00:11:14] world.

[00:11:17] Exactly.

[00:11:18] The Renaissance is known as the rebirth of antiquity and that's where humanists

[00:11:24] like Petrarch or Erasmus studied these original texts and shaped these Greek myths

[00:11:33] art, painting and literature at that time, in other words the great influence

[00:11:38] on it.

[00:11:39] Then we can move on to the Enlightenment, Classicism, where Greek antiquity is seen as the ideal

[00:11:48] of beauty, reason and harmony, there is something like a cult of Greece and

[00:11:54] this Greek material was translated and restaged for the first time.

[00:11:58] Then we move on to the modern age, exactly, where this material is now also being reinterpreted

[00:12:07] but above all, it is also taken up critically and Greek tragedy is restaged,

[00:12:13] modernized and partly also politically interpreted and Jaci and I recently made a

[00:12:22] movie night at my house, [Jaci: Purely for research purposes], purely for research purposes [Jaci laughs]

[00:12:28] we watched Troy by director Peterson from 2006, [Jaci: 2004], it came out in 2004 exactly,

[00:12:38] with Brad Pitt in the lead role [Jaci cheers quietly in the background, laughs] as Achilles, so as Achilles and research purposes,

[00:12:47] because we want to deal a bit with how the "Iliad" is interpreted in this film version

[00:12:54] interpreted and of course not because Brad Pitt runs around shirtless most of the time. [laughs]

[00:13:00] Jaci: [acts astonished] What?

[00:13:01] Exactly, and because we're about to focus on "Song of Achilles" in a few minutes

[00:13:09] the novel and that's why we wanted to take a closer look at Achilles.

[00:13:16] Shelly: Exactly.

[00:13:17] Jaci: Exactly, very briefly just after ... Thank you for your great list of the entire

[00:13:23] literary history of Greek mythology, maybe what's closer to us now

[00:13:28] now than the Renaissance, which perhaps many also know, are the retellings

[00:13:34] by Auguste Lechner, especially in the Austrian/Tyrolean context, I think, she just

[00:13:41] retelling old material, for example "Odyssey" from 1961, "Hercules" too, 1977,

[00:13:48] the "Iliad" in 1973 and what I think many people also know, for example, the "Nibelungen" saga

[00:13:53] she retold. And many people still know it from their school days from

[00:13:59] back then. The "Percy Jackson" series is now better known to our generation. It came out in 2005.

[00:14:07] Shelly:But not by that author you just said? - Jaci: Well, Percy Jackson is by Rick

[00:14:14] Riordan. Exactly, it came out in 2005 and a lot more of us know it. Sorry,

[00:14:19] that was just. So it wasn't Auguste Lechner who wrote "Percy Jackson", [both laugh] but Rick Riordan.

[00:14:25] And that came out in 2005. I didn't read it when I was twelve, but a lot of people did

[00:14:31] of my friends read it when they were twelve and then it became a hit in our

[00:14:35] generation of Greek mythology retellings. And then also

[00:14:40] films like in "Troy", which we said was from 2004, or the Disney film "Hercules" has also

[00:14:45] Shelly has already said. Or for example the movie "Immortals" with Henry Cavill from 2011.

[00:14:51] I don't know if you've seen it? - Shelly: No, but keyword Henry Cavill has already hooked me. [laughs] - Jaci: So for

[00:14:56] research purposes, I highly recommend it. You see, Greek mythology is always new

[00:15:04] has always been retold or taken up. It has always fascinated mankind,

[00:15:08] what happened back then. And I think you can question that now. For us it is now

[00:15:13] pure entertainment, of course. In the past, it was also entertainment, or did people

[00:15:18] used to really see it as historical, as factual history somehow?

[00:15:24] Shelly: I think so. - Jaci: Well, because of course I find that incredibly difficult, because in the past

[00:15:28] people also believed in these deities. And that for them then, so to speak

[00:15:32] not legends and myths like they are for us now, but perhaps factual stories,

[00:15:38] that perhaps even happened. Especially because there are also ruins,

[00:15:43] that point to Troy. So where it is assumed that this was the city of Troy or that there

[00:15:50] there really was a war and stuff like that. And I mean, you can't deny that. It can be

[00:15:55] of course it could also be that this "Homer", I'm putting quotation marks around Homer, [laughs]

[00:15:59] the person of Homer has heard of a war, but then of course the whole story

[00:16:04] spun around it. But that's beyond the scope of this podcast episode. Maybe we need to

[00:16:10] we need to do a separate episode on Homer. Exactly, because we actually wanted to focus on

[00:16:15] retellings and would start now with the "Song of Achilles" by Madeline Miller.

[00:16:21] And the novel was published in 2011 and it came out after "Percy Jackson", I think,

[00:16:29] I would now say that the retellings, especially now in the Young

[00:16:34] adult and young adult literature. - Shelly: But mainly through Booktok and

[00:16:41] Bookstargram. That was just a couple years ago and again, it's one of the Booktok books,

[00:16:48] that you have to read. - Jaci: Exactly, so the novel is really, really big on Bookstagram and

[00:16:55] Booktok and everywhere. And if you've never actually read it, you don't really have anything on

[00:16:59] those platforms, [both laugh, Shelly laughs indignantly] that's what they tell you. That's not what I'm saying, but

[00:17:04] it just seems to me that if you haven't read that, then everyone is like, yeah, okay, then what are you doing on

[00:17:08] this platform? Because it's really, it's everywhere, it's everywhere, the novel and in my opinion

[00:17:14] deserves. It's a very, very good novel, that's why we're talking about it today. And I would

[00:17:19] explain very briefly what the novel is about. It's a historical-mythological novel,

[00:17:27] which retells the story of the Greek heroes Achilles and Patroclus from Homer's "Iliad"

[00:17:33] told in a new way. The whole thing is told from Patroclus' point of view. And we follow the

[00:17:40] protagonist. He is a shy prince who was sent into exile by his father after

[00:17:45] he accidentally killed a boy. And he then grows up together with Achilles in

[00:17:53] his home of Pythia. Exactly. And Achilles has always been one of the most beautiful

[00:18:01] and young, so the most beautiful young warriors there are. So he's always been known for his beauty and

[00:18:07] for his, for his talent for fighting, so to speak. And then they grow

[00:18:14] grow up together. A deep friendship develops between the two of them and later on

[00:18:19] also a love affair. And when the Trojan War breaks out, they both answer the call to

[00:18:25] battle and go to Troy. And Achilles fulfills his destiny there as a great warrior.

[00:18:31] And Patroclus has to watch as fame, honor and pride destroy Achilles a little.

[00:18:40] And their friendship and their love affair suffers greatly

[00:18:43] under it. And it's very, very tragic. Especially if you know the mythology,

[00:18:49] you know that they both die. [laughs] So you know it's not going to end well. And this novel has

[00:18:56] so successful, in my opinion, because it's just right in tune with the times,

[00:19:00] by retelling things in a new way and at the same time, a homosexual relationship

[00:19:06] between Achilles and Patroclus. And many people are in favor of this relationship

[00:19:12] against it, so a lot of "Iliad" fans, I would say, are against this love affair. But even

[00:19:19] the "Iliad" constantly mentions how close Achilles and Patroclus are. And there

[00:19:24] already rumored between everyone as to whether there wasn't more than just camaraderie between the

[00:19:28] the two of them. Because they kind of like, like, one person moves around a lot and stuff like that. - Shelly: And it was yeah

[00:19:35] in ancient Greece now it was nothing special, nothing sensational when two men

[00:19:42] have a relationship. - Jaci: And the novel wasn't ... apart from the fact that it's a homosexual

[00:19:51] love affair, but it also questions the structures of the "Iliad". Gives all the characters

[00:19:56] more depth, even secondary characters or something like that. And Patroclus, for example, also has much more depth.

[00:20:01] Questions the structure of the time and also the concept of the hero for

[00:20:07] the ... Well, Achilles is no longer celebrated as the hero he is in the "Iliad",

[00:20:13] because he's also very humanized in the novel, which is nothing negative. I think

[00:20:18] that totally positive. Exactly, you've already read the novel. What did you take away from it or what are

[00:20:25] the things that have stayed with you the most? - Shelly:I think what I liked so much

[00:20:31] about the novel is, like you said, the Achilles was so humanized

[00:20:37] and questions a little bit the heroic image that he has shaped in the "Iliad".

[00:20:43] And I think that's because we also read along in the novel "Song of Achilles"

[00:20:50] how Achilles grows up. So that's in the "Iliad", from where more you're right in the middle of

[00:20:56] war and it's all this theater of war and it's a lot about these disputes between

[00:21:04] the characters involved. And in "Song for Achilles" you have this adolescent process,

[00:21:12] that you follow, the coming of age of Achilles, the relationship with Patroclus and one

[00:21:18] I think you have a completely different approach to the character. And I liked that. - Jaci: Yes, definitely,

[00:21:23] because then you somehow understand him more as a character and also this dichotomy,

[00:21:29] that he has within himself between "I actually want to live" and "I want to be happy with people,

[00:21:33] whom I love", but at the same time this inner striving for fame and recognition. And when you

[00:21:39] are brought up like that from an early age and are celebrated as this demigod, then it's, well, that's where

[00:21:44] then you have a god complex. So how they both learn the two figures, they are

[00:21:49] then with the centaur Chiron and many people know him from the "Percy Jackson" series, where he is also a

[00:21:55] teacher and he trains them, so to speak, in his home on Mount Pillion, he trains the

[00:22:03] and there they are actually quite isolated from the world and actually totally peaceful and

[00:22:08] grow up in a forest and learn how to deal with nature. And then the hard cut to the

[00:22:13] war and I think Roman deals with the whole topic really well and you realize and

[00:22:19] you understand Achilles with his personality, just somehow better I think. That

[00:22:24] he did a great job. And a novel that did that similarly well for me is "The Silence of

[00:22:31] the Girls" by Pat Barker. Have you read that? [Shelly: No. So I stumbled across that a few years ago as well,

[00:22:38] it came out in 2018 and I wrote a master's thesis about it right now,

[00:22:44] that's why I'm so deep into this "Greek Mythology" right now and you get and that's

[00:22:51] novel, which is told from the point of view of Briseis, the slave girl who Achilles has chosen as his wife

[00:22:56] bed wife or is given to him as a present and Achilles is also described in more detail, not

[00:23:03] from childhood, so really only from the moment Briseis meets him, but also this

[00:23:09] friendship between Patroclus and Achilles is very, very, very important in "The Silence of

[00:23:14] the Girls" and Briseis is a secondary character in "Song of Achilles", so she's a good

[00:23:20] friend of Patroklos at some point, even though she has feelings for him, but she's also quite a

[00:23:26] quite important character, but not so deep now and in "The Silence of the Girls" she is

[00:23:32] really the main character and that's also one of the best feminist retellings of Greek myths

[00:23:37] mythology in my opinion because it really addresses the suffering of the women in the camp as well

[00:23:43] so it's not just about the great warriors and how they kill everyone

[00:23:50] and what's so great, but really the women, how they suffer, how they starve every day

[00:23:55] starve, are raped, are at the mercy of men and also a really great, strong novel that

[00:24:02] retells this in a new way. And there are many feminist retellings that have something in this

[00:24:08] tradition, for example "Stone Blind", which is now very well known

[00:24:15] "Stone Blind" by Natalie Haynes is this one and it tells the story of Medusa, who is also

[00:24:25] is quite a misunderstood figure in mythology in my opinion or there's still, there's

[00:24:32] there is also "Ariadne", for example "Ariadne" or "Elektra" also by Jennifer Saint. and there are

[00:24:42] simply female figures who do appear in mythology, but either as a secondary character in

[00:24:48] the story of the man or as conquests of men or who have been abducted

[00:24:54] by male heroes, they then get their own story, as it were, with the

[00:24:59] fate. - Shelly: Just like "Circe" by Madeleine Miller, that's also along those lines. - Jaci: Exactly, so

[00:25:04] Madeleine Miller not only wrote the "Song of Achilles", but also "Circe", I wrote that one

[00:25:08] I personally haven't read that one. - Shelly: I have. Read that one, it's great. - Jaci: Yeah, but very, very

[00:25:13] important that these oppressed female characters are told in a new way and we think that's great

[00:25:19] great, I love this trend, there are tens of thousands of them now, so every female

[00:25:25] figure from mythology, be it Medusa or Medea now, Hera, Clymenestra, Andromache,

[00:25:34] so all the female figures from the "Iliad" or from other myths have their own story

[00:25:39] and I think it's so important and so great that these characters are given a voice,

[00:25:44] because it just gives so much more depth to these myths and they're not just, well, these

[00:25:50] are not just novels where the female characters are celebrated and the men

[00:25:54] hated, but the male characters also get more depth, they get more

[00:25:58] inner conflict and feelings and they are also questioned more by everyone,

[00:26:05] what the gods do in such situations and why the gods intervene in such and such a way. Quite

[00:26:11] great topic and I think it also helps a lot if you rethink these old structures

[00:26:19] and restructure them, [Shelly: Break them up a bit], exactly, break them up and show, hey, that was already wrong back then and

[00:26:26] maybe even parallel, sadly, parallel to today's times still sees with

[00:26:30] structures that can also be broken up and I also find that very empowering as a

[00:26:36] young woman to read something like that and it's also very important that the new generations read such

[00:26:40] books can also read. - Shelly: So our conclusion is that we love Greek mythology [Jaci laughs] and Greek mythology

[00:26:48] Retellings. [Jaci: Yes!] Please tell us what you think about Greek Mythology and the Retellings, what you think about them

[00:26:55] you've already read, what you can recommend to us, in the DMs on Instagram, that's

[00:27:01] stadtbibliothek.innsbruck or write an email to post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at. We

[00:27:10] would be delighted, we would be happy to answer. - Jaci: Thanks for listening. [Outro music]

[00:27:18] [Pia speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and shares the Stadtstimmen, the

[00:27:44] Audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Pia speaks]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulated] Boris: [reads] Martin Walker, "Déjà-vu", the 17th case for Bruno, Chef de police, Diogenes 2025.

[00:00:19] Bruno is still recovering from a gunshot wound when a mysterious discovery arouses his interest

[00:00:25] awakens his interest. A grave with three skeletons is found near a dilapidated castle,

[00:00:31] apparently from the Second World War. Have war crimes been committed in idyllic Saint-Denis?

[00:00:37] occurred? Bruno sets off in search of clues to dark times, but also in the present

[00:00:44] he is urgently needed. International visitors must be provided with delicacies from the

[00:00:49] Périgord and the picturesque Vesère swells into a raging torrent,

[00:00:57] which puts the whole of Saint-Denis in danger. [Intro music]

[00:01:00] Boris: Hello and welcome back to "Foreword: Short and sweet", today with Martin

[00:01:21] Walker and my name is Boris Schöhn. Yes, dear Mr. Walker, nice to have you here.

[00:01:29] Martin Walker: Thank you for inviting me, it's always interesting to do a podcast.

[00:01:35] Boris: This time in German. I would ask you, first of all, like all of our guests

[00:01:41] you introduce yourself very briefly. - Martin Walker: I am an author. I'm writing a novel about a small corner

[00:01:49] of France called Périgord, and I write crime fiction and I was a journalist

[00:01:56] many years ago, for a British newspaper, "The Guardian". I was a correspondent in

[00:02:00] Moscow, United States, when I was a boy in Africa, in the Middle East, I wrote beautiful

[00:02:10] moment, I've seen terrible wars and now I write crime fiction, cookbooks,

[00:02:19] and live in a beautiful corner, [Boris laughs] a little corner of Paradise [in English] in France.

[00:02:25] Boris: You said you were a journalist, when did you get the idea to write literature?

[00:02:30] to write literature? - Martin Walker: I've always written books, at first

[00:02:34] I started with books about politics in Britain, then books about international relations and

[00:02:41] so and then, because I was in Moscow, I wrote my first book about Mikhail Gorbachev

[00:02:45] and then I wrote a book, a history of

[00:02:50] [unintelligible] and then a book about Bill Clinton, then a book about American history

[00:02:56] and so on and after this very serious, a bit boring books, I wrote my

[00:03:04] first novel, "Shadows on the Wall", but it was in the Périgord, in this corner

[00:03:11] of France, but without Bruno, without it's not a crime novel, it was this corner, what

[00:03:17] before a company could make this masterpiece of the Lascaux cave, that was before

[00:03:24] 18,000 years ago and also this, this valley also in the summer of '44, which was a war between

[00:03:33] the Resistance and the German tanks, so, that was my first fiction.

[00:03:43] Boris: And how did you come to Bruno and the idea of writing crime fiction?

[00:03:50] Martin Walker: Because I made a very good friend in Périgord and he was the teacher of tennis

[00:03:57] and was like for all the children, he was a hunter, he was a gourmet, he was a beautiful

[00:04:04] cook and he was our village policeman and we are very, very good friends, we have

[00:04:12] played tennis together many years ago, I helped that, he was a coach for

[00:04:20] the boys, I helped with that and he died, very, very young, very tragic,

[00:04:27] but now, I'm the vice-president of the rugby community in our region and

[00:04:35] you see from my broken nose that I have played myself really and so, it

[00:04:42] is nice that I have something in front of his memories, my memories, about Piero, Piero is called.

[00:04:50] So do and it's a, I'm very happy, I found a beautiful, clean place

[00:05:00] found, not only with so many stories, not only with beautiful wine, with beautiful

[00:05:05] food, but very, very, very friendly neighbors.

[00:05:10] Boris: You've been in Périgord for some time now, at least part of the year.

[00:05:16] How would you describe the people in Périgord?

[00:05:19] Martin Walker: Yes, I spend three months a year on a reading tour in Germany, in France,

[00:05:28] in other countries too, because today that's my duty as a writer, the more

[00:05:35] you have to promote your novel.

[00:05:40] But my first trip abroad, I had 13 years was in France and that was in

[00:05:50] Paris, I was an exchange student, I was with a French family three weeks ago and

[00:05:56] their son came to stay with us three weeks ago and it was beautiful, I was fascinated.

[00:06:03] There's this flavor in the metro, I remember my first taste of French

[00:06:11] coffee, my first croissant and so on.

[00:06:13] I thought [exclaims] My God, how beautiful people live here!

[00:06:18] Boris: Were you still living in Scotland then?

[00:06:21] Martin Walker: Yes, yes.

[00:06:22] And Scotland is beautiful, but no croissant. [Boris laughs]

[00:06:27] Boris: Yes, it's like this now, you're in the city library in Innsbruck today to get your new,

[00:06:36] Bruno's latest case, which has been published in German.

[00:06:40] It's already the seventeenth case.

[00:06:41] How do you keep coming up with new ideas to continue these crime novels?

[00:06:47] Because seventeen cases is quite a lot, so ...

[00:06:49] Martin Walker: Yes, I don't know why these ideas come, but they always do.

[00:06:53] I hear something, I think something like this.

[00:06:57] In this novel, we start with a grave, of, yeah you find a dead man from the Second

[00:07:05] World War II.

[00:07:06] In the novel that I'm writing today, it's something to do with Wolfen, because we still have

[00:07:13] wolves once in France.

[00:07:15] And that's very, that's a lot, a lot of fear for people who have sheep.

[00:07:23] But we are facing an equilibrium in the ecology, maybe the wolves are

[00:07:31] naturally also in our landscape.

[00:07:33] So, that's an issue as well.

[00:07:37] So, there's always something interesting that I hear you very much.

[00:07:42] And there I have an idea before a new, before a whole new novel.

[00:07:48] Boris: They say about Thomas Mann, the writer, that he always found things when

[00:07:54] invented.

[00:07:55] Are you also someone who finds his material rather than inventing it?

[00:07:59] Martin Walker: I'm no Thomas Mann.

[00:08:01] I can't do "Magic Mountain". [Boris laughs]

[00:08:04] That was the title, yes, "Magic Mountain".

[00:08:08] So, what I find is that suffering is always interesting.

[00:08:16] There's always suprise.

[00:08:17] And from interesting and suprise, you can always write a novel.

[00:08:23] Boris: Well, you always write about the Périgord.

[00:08:27] Is there so much interesting information in Périgord that you don't run out of material?

[00:08:33] run out of material?

[00:08:34] Martin Walker: It's very easy for me.

[00:08:36] We have so much in Périgord.

[00:08:38] We have medieval castles, we have a big war between Protestants and

[00:08:43] Catholics.

[00:08:44] We have World War II as a subject.

[00:08:49] We have prehistoric people.

[00:08:51] We have Julius Caesar, Charlemagne and so on.

[00:08:56] I have so many ideas and we have beautiful wine and very, very good food.

[00:09:05] I think that a man who writes about a small place in Scotland, for example,

[00:09:13] maybe he doesn't have so many topics interesting to follow.

[00:09:19] But every novel is a bit about people, about men and women, children.

[00:09:29] And that's without time, that's without geography, because what we have is other men, other

[00:09:39] women, other people in our lives.

[00:09:41] And that's what comes, what you find in every novel.

[00:09:45] Boris: Now I have another question.

[00:09:46] You said it before, you always do a relatively extensive

[00:09:51] Reading tour.

[00:09:52] You read in many places, present your book in many places.

[00:09:55] You said before that you have to do marketing or promote the book.

[00:10:00] But is that the only reason or do you just like to get out there with your books

[00:10:07] and present yourself in different places and talk to people or what are the reasons?

[00:10:13] Martin Walker: When you're writing, you're all, all, all alone.

[00:10:17] So for me the opportunity to get to know my readers a little bit is always a wonderful

[00:10:24] Opportunity.

[00:10:25] And I find that their reactions are very important to me.

[00:10:31] Their questions are very important.

[00:10:33] And also it's always interesting to see a new city, new people, new buildings

[00:10:42] and so on.

[00:10:43] It's beautiful.

[00:10:44] I write a novel every year [Boris laughs] and then I have three months reading tour in the United States,

[00:10:51] in Germany, in Austria, in France.

[00:10:56] Beautiful.

[00:10:57] Better than work. [laughs]

[00:10:58] Boris: Yes, I think so.

[00:11:00] Above all, you can already enjoy the fruits of your labor. [both laugh]

[00:11:03] Now I have another question about the, because I think you're a human being, you have

[00:11:09] you've said it before, you like to eat.

[00:11:11] Is there a favorite dish?

[00:11:13] Martin Walker: Yes, my "last dinner", [Boris laughs] my favorite dinner starts with foie gras and then

[00:11:23] after foie gras a small soup with griebi.

[00:11:30] Griebi is "mushrooms", as they tell you, I forget ...

[00:11:37] Boris: Mushrooms.

[00:11:38] Martin Walker: And then Venison, that's venison and at the end crème brûlée and a bit of cheese

[00:11:47] made by [unintelligible] my friend Stephan.

[00:11:51] Boris: That sounds good, yeah.

[00:11:52] I'll be there too. [laughs]

[00:11:53] Martin Walker: And wine too. [both laugh]

[00:11:54] Boris: Yes, thank you very much for this interview.

[00:11:57] Dear Martin Walker, thank you for being here.

[00:12:00] Thank you very much.

[00:12:01] Martin Walker: Thank you. [Outro music]

[00:12:02] [Boris speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of Stadtstimmen,

[00:12:32] the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Boris speaks]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulated]

[00:00:07] Pia: The book in a sentence, Christina, how would you describe that?

[00:00:11] Christina: Okay, reading "Nincshof" is like saving a plane trip across the Atlantic to Stars Hollow.

[00:00:18] Pia: Pretty much sums it up.

[00:00:20] Christina: You think so?

[00:00:21] Yes, I think so. [both laugh]

[00:00:22] [Intro music] Christina: Hello and welcome back to the preface, the podcast of the Innsbruck City Library.

[00:00:42] My name is Christina.

[00:00:43] Pia: And I'm Pia.

[00:00:44] Christina: And today we start with our book review.

[00:00:48] Today we're talking about "Nincshof" by Johanna Sebauer.

[00:00:52] This was published by DuMont-Verlag in 2023.

[00:00:57] Because I'm watching Gilmore Girls again.

[00:01:01] That's where the allusion comes from for those who don't know.

[00:01:04] It's from that bizarreness factor ... of course, one is set in a US village.

[00:01:10] Somewhere in Massachusetts, that's also fictional.

[00:01:12] The other one is set somewhere in Austria.

[00:01:15] I would assume in Burgenland. [Pia laughs]

[00:01:17] In your fictional village in Burgenland.

[00:01:20] But it gets there.

[00:01:23] Pia: Yeah, similar vibe.

[00:01:25] Christina: Could you maybe give us the synopsis for our listeners first, so that we're all on the same...

[00:01:31] Sure of course, but maybe first to Ms. Sebauer herself.

[00:01:36] Christina: Good idea. [laughs]

[00:01:37] Pia: She was born in 1988, an Austrian writer.

[00:01:41] Grew up in Burgenland, that's where Burgenland comes from.

[00:01:44] "Nincshof" is her debut novel, published in 2023 by DuMont-Verlag, as you said.

[00:01:50] And tells the story of a village somewhere in Austria that wants to be forgotten.

[00:01:55] It's on the Austrian-Hungarian border and has never really made friends with the modern world.

[00:02:01] There are three men in the book, the mayor, Valentin and SippSepp, who is over a hundred years old.

[00:02:07] And they pursue a very unusual plan.

[00:02:10] They want to thoroughly erase the village from the collective memory so that the world will forget it.

[00:02:15] Their motivation is the longing for absolute peace and freedom and to be untroubled by tourists, the internet and the constraints of time.

[00:02:23] But they need support.

[00:02:25] And that's where they find old Erna Rohdiebl, who they believe has the feeling of freedom in her blood. [laughs]

[00:02:31] Erna thinks the idea is nonsense, but someone is a bit curious.

[00:02:36] And then joins these self-proclaimed Oblivists.

[00:02:40] And these Oblivists consistently implement their plan.

[00:02:43] Street signs are removed, pages are torn out of library books.

[00:02:47] That's totally unacceptable, we think, of course.

[00:02:49] Internet sites will disappear [laughs], unwanted visitors will be scrambled.

[00:02:55] Cyclists, for example, will be driven away with a strange stench.

[00:03:00] So yes, that's where it gets pretty rough.

[00:03:02] Everything seems to be going according to plan until new residents appear in the town.

[00:03:07] Christina: The Zuagroastn!

[00:03:08] Pia: Yeah, exactly. [laughs]

[00:03:09] The filmmaker Isa Bachgasser and her goat breeder, her husband,

[00:03:15] Silvano Mezzaroni.

[00:03:17] Christina: [in bad Italian dialect] Silvano Mezzaroni.

[00:03:18] Pia: Right. [laughs]

[00:03:19] And they cause trouble, because they have their own ideas about what to do with "Nincshof".

[00:03:24] And so a very turbulent summer takes its course.

[00:03:27] Christina: Exactly, and that's a totally summery book for me.

[00:03:31] Pia: Yeah, totally.

[00:03:32] How did you like it?

[00:03:35] How did you feel, Christina, when you read the book?

[00:03:39] Christina: Well, I think it's a very uplifting book.

[00:03:42] It's good humor and it's wonderfully whimsical, hence the reference to Stars Hollow earlier.

[00:03:48] It's very funny, ironic and warm-hearted and I really liked that.

[00:03:55] That's why I really enjoyed the book.

[00:03:58] It was very absurd at times.

[00:04:00] But then again it was also grounded, because it felt like we all know a little bit about this small village in Austria.

[00:04:08] Then I thought to myself, [amused] I don't just know a village like that, I live in a village like that in Austria. [Pia laughs]

[00:04:15] And like Erna Rohdiebl, I also thought to myself in the summer, I would like to,

[00:04:19] At the very beginning of the novel, she wants to sneak into the swimming pool,

[00:04:25] into the swimming pool of her neighbor who is on vacation.

[00:04:29] And hey, who doesn't know it, right? [both laugh]

[00:04:32] And I think that's the best kind of regional novel,

[00:04:38] when they skillfully portray the country and its people.

[00:04:42] And the text succeeds in doing that.

[00:04:44] But at the same time, I found it a bit romanticized, romanticized-exaggerated, I would even say.

[00:04:50] But that makes the observations all the more powerful in this case.

[00:04:55] And the characters, it's been quite a while since I read it before the recording.

[00:05:01] The characters still live with me, so I still carry them around with me and that's always a good sign.

[00:05:08] Exactly, and that's with - [amused] one of my favorite parts was when the Oblivists went after the community website. [laughs]

[00:05:18] That sounds very familiar. [laughs]

[00:05:23] Pia: There are a few scenes like that where you laugh your ass off with the characters and at the characters.

[00:05:28] Christina: So that people know once again which characters are the most important, Erna Rohdiebl, that's the old-established one.

[00:05:36] And I would roughly say our protagonist, right?

[00:05:40] Pia: Yeah, most of the novel kind of takes place, so you see it through her eyes, a little bit.

[00:05:45] She gets involved in the whole thing and then also has to deal with these, what did you say, the Zuagroastn? - Christina: The Zuagroastn. [both laugh]

[00:05:50] Pia: Then also has to do with the Zuagroastn.

[00:05:53] Christina: The Zuagroastn, that's Isa Bachgasser and Silvano Mezzaroni.

[00:05:58] The couple from Vienna, she's a documentary filmmaker, which of course runs a bit counter to the Oblivists.

[00:06:06] And then the mayor, who didn't have a name, that's "the mayor".

[00:06:10] The SippSepp, who is already so old that nobody knows how old he actually is.

[00:06:15] And then Valentin, who is supposed to represent the younger generation in this trio of Oblivists.

[00:06:22] That was a relatively young man.

[00:06:25] What did you notice about the text?

[00:06:28] Pia: Well, I totally loved it. It was extremely entertaining, entertaining.

[00:06:33] Christina: Entertaining?

[00:06:34] Pia: Entertaining. [laughs]

[00:06:35] Christina: Is there such a word?

[00:06:36] Pia: Does the word exist? Yes, we'll find out. [laughs]

[00:06:38] We'll google it.

[00:06:40] Of course, as you read in the summary, it's about, or you hear, it's really also about the question of forgetting and the freedom that this forgetting brings with it.

[00:06:52] While the modern world strives for attention, visibility and networking, "Nincshof" goes the opposite way, they want to be forgotten and they pride themselves on being forgotten.

[00:07:03] The Oblivists, these three gentlemen and Ms. Rohdiebl, who believe that true independence can only be achieved when no one knows about them anymore.

[00:07:13] What do you think, Christina? [laughs]

[00:07:15] What is your reaction to Oblivism? For me ... Well, it made the whole thing somehow more bizarre, funnier and more humorous.

[00:07:23] Christina: Full. So it's portrayed in a very fairytale-like way and it's also supposed to be funny.

[00:07:28] We'll get to that later, whether it works or not.

[00:07:32] But I think that the desire to withdraw into the private sphere in these turbulent times is something that is now generally observed a lot.

[00:07:41] So that's what I can well understand.

[00:07:44] And also this general observation, this retreat into the private sphere that is simply taking place,

[00:07:52] I think the novel picks up on that, but in a very charmingly ironic way, he could have done it very differently.

[00:08:00] It could have gone in a completely different, darker direction.

[00:08:04] And that's not what the text did.

[00:08:07] And in this bizarre tone, which we talk about so much, there is also a comment for me about the absurdity of this project.

[00:08:15] In other words, it anticipates a little how impossible it actually is.

[00:08:20] That's where the absurdity lies a little bit.

[00:08:23] And they want that old time back,

[00:08:27] the inhabitants of our three Oblivists; Erna, I have the feeling, resonates a bit.

[00:08:34] She's more our "eyes".

[00:08:36] They want to be in front of the Internet, in front of trendy cycling.

[00:08:40] They get so wonderfully upset about road cyclists.

[00:08:44] That makes me laugh too, because I also live next to a road where a lot of racing cyclists rush up the hill. [both laugh]

[00:08:51] Nowadays it would probably be gravel bikes.

[00:08:54] And I find that Austrian literature very often, especially the more recent novels, well, the novels that I've read recently,

[00:09:04] deal with this area of tension between tradition and tourism in the broader sense or, in this case, technology.

[00:09:15] And then how tradition is also marketed, because "Nincshof" is somehow also a tourist area [hesitates] -

[00:09:23] It's not in the true sense, but it's more of an excursion destination in that case?

[00:09:29] Pia: Yeah, a drive-through area and just experience nature around there.

[00:09:32] Not Nincshof itself as a village, but the surrounding area.

[00:09:36] Christina: Exactly, where the cyclists always ride through, because it's so beautiful, because the route is so nice.

[00:09:41] But then what makes the novel so appealing to me is what it means to live in such an area and how it feels,

[00:09:48] when you are perhaps pushed a little bit out of your own living environment or out of your own rhythm and groove.

[00:09:54] As an Innsbrucker, you can perhaps understand this in a completely different way, where you don't go to certain places or you just go - Pia: To the old town. [laughs] You avoid certain things there.

[00:10:04] Christina: Yes, you don't go to the old town.

[00:10:06] Exactly. And, as I said, the tone for me just anticipates, "no, of course you can't do that, you can't go back to the good old days", whatever that is supposed to be.

[00:10:18] And that doesn't make the desire any less understandable and ... it's human.

[00:10:25] Pia: What I also found interesting about the whole thing is that even though it's this "Heimatroman" in quotation marks and this old village with such long-established inhabitants,

[00:10:35] it did break with norms and traditions.

[00:10:38] Exactly, Nincshof breaks a bit with common conventions. In our society in general, forgetting is often seen as something negative,

[00:10:46] You want to be remembered, even for posterity, and leave a trace.

[00:10:50] But "Nincshof" basically turns that on its head a bit. But also in other aspects, you have to say, they play a bit with the traditional role models.

[00:10:58] In Nincshof, for example, it's common for the man's name not to be passed on, but the woman's, but with the suffix "-er".

[00:11:07] This means that in Erna Rohdiebl's family, it's not the Rohdiebls, but the Rohdieblers. Her husband is then called Ferdinand Rohdiebler, after her.

[00:11:17] I found it quite interesting that "Nincshof" is creating a new tradition and that this is completely natural for all Nincshofers.

[00:11:25] On the contrary, you have this modern filmmaker, Ms. Bachgasser, this supposedly modern woman who is a bit of an oddball, [laughs]

[00:11:34] because she doesn't understand it straight away and doesn't want to understand this old-established system.

[00:11:39] What was your reaction to the reversal of social patterns?

[00:11:44] Christina: I didn't notice that at all. I did notice that Erna Rohdiebl, who is also a very old, unusually old protagonist, which was refreshing,

[00:11:59] I found her to be, well, "emancipated", without thinking to myself while reading, "Ah, she's full of it, she's a complete emancipated woman."

[00:12:08] Instead, she just did what she wanted. That was kind of nice. [laughs]

[00:12:15] Pia: She just did her thing.

[00:12:17] Christina: Yes, exactly. For example:

[00:12:18] That's also, I already said, the novel starts, she breaks into the garden of the neighbors who are out of town in the summer and is so freedom-loving and then just goes with the flow and doesn't care about it. [amused]

[00:12:31] [both laugh] Yes, that, but I didn't really notice the role models. Did you have the feeling that the novel commented on that?

[00:12:42] Pia: I did have the feeling a little bit that the people from Vienna, who are so modern and all that, and just through this view of Bachgasser, who is portrayed in such a modern way.

[00:12:53] Christina: As a woman, you mean? - Pia: As a woman, exactly.

[00:12:55] Then she comes in there and suddenly it's turned around and it seems really strange to her and she doesn't know what to do with it.

[00:13:01] Christina: What exactly is upside down?

[00:13:03] Pia: That the last names come from the women and not from the men when they get married.

[00:13:11] That's something where you realize, okay, it's an older village and there are certain traditions, but that doesn't mean that because it's old, it's integrated into this patriarchal system.

[00:13:21] Christina: It was sort of the intention of the text to suggest more, even though it's a village, it doesn't mean that it has to be backwoods.

[00:13:33] Pia: Exactly.

[00:13:36] Christina: As you say, to break with the conventions, or I would even say with these prejudices, right?

[00:13:39] So "in Vienna you're so enlightened in the big city, but back in the village it's very different" and that was yes, that broke it a bit.

[00:13:50] Pia: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:13:52] And "Nincshof" deliberately plays with the question of what is real and what is not.

[00:13:57] You've already mentioned the goats that shine at birth, these figs, which doesn't always say it, I have to say.

[00:14:05] Christina: Pusza?

[00:14:06] Puszafeigenschnapps, because I listened to the audio book, that also has its advantages. [both laugh]

[00:14:10] Pia: They only exist there supposedly or just the ancient SippSepp, he's over 100.

[00:14:15] So a lot of things seem to be made up, but that doesn't really matter.

[00:14:19] The story itself becomes the truth because it is told.

[00:14:23] The power of storytelling is also addressed.

[00:14:26] We've already said that Isa Bachgasser is a filmmaker who also wants to pass things on and work against forgetting.

[00:14:34] And with regard to reality, the figures often seem almost like figures or characters from a legend, almost as if they weren't just people.

[00:14:42] Christina: Which comes from this exaggeration.

[00:14:46] Pia: Exactly, they just then often stand for ideas or attitudes and often the names of the characters are given in full.

[00:14:53] So it's usually the case that we talk about "Isa Bachgasser", not just "Isa", or always "Erna Rohdiebl".

[00:15:00] Yes, that's also very interesting.

[00:15:03] Christina: It creates a distance to the characters, the comedy, so the comedy in it is intensified by that.

[00:15:13] Pia: Yes.

[00:15:14] Did you know from the beginning that the crazy people [Christina laughs] and the schnapps were made up?

[00:15:19] Or did she set you up, Mrs. Sebauer? [laughs]

[00:15:22] Christina: Well, I just thought that once again I don't know my way around typical Austrian stories. [Pia laughs]

[00:15:30] And with the crazy people, I already knew that nothing would light up.

[00:15:35] Well, I knew that the goats don't light up, no matter how crazy they are.

[00:15:40] But the text, and you're right, conveys these absurdities with such dryness.

[00:15:46] Pia: And matter-of-factness.

[00:15:48] Christina: Self-evidence.

[00:15:50] And also repeated and repeated.

[00:15:52] You have to imagine how Silvano Mezzaroni gets into his crazy goat breeding.

[00:15:57] And then Isa Bachgasser comments on it in her head and is so annoyed by it.

[00:16:01] And then suddenly Erna Rohdiebl comes along and comments on it again from her perspective.

[00:16:06] And then suddenly you ... something happens to you.

[00:16:09] Well, at least that's how it happened to me.

[00:16:11] And I also know from at least one other person: Then we both, that was the person,

[00:16:16] a dear neighbor to whom I successfully recommended the book.

[00:16:20] Then we both stood at the railroad tracks and said, "Hey, have you looked, do lunatics really exist?"

[00:16:25] [both laugh]

[00:16:27] And I said, "I don't think so, but I felt the need to google it."

[00:16:32] And then I think at some point I googled it again, there's no Irrzinge.

[00:16:35] Okay, we know there are no Irrzings! But there it was, it was like, yeah, could have been.

[00:16:40] Pia: I also thought to myself - you know anyway, I don't know anything about animals anyway, and then I was like,

[00:16:43] Yeah, yeah, they'll be there somewhere in the Andes or don't ask me. [laughs]

[00:16:48] But I didn't question it too much, but at the beginning they're just mentioned as being crazy,

[00:16:52] but they don't go into it in detail?

[00:16:54] I had the feeling, at least, and then, however, where they then started,

[00:16:59] that it became strange, this creature, and at some point it was like, okay, well, something can't be right. [amused]

[00:17:03] Christina: It got more and more absurd and she actually, the text builds it up really cleverly,

[00:17:09] It's still close to reality, it's getting more and more absurd.

[00:17:15] And that's what makes it so cool, but with the Puszafeigen-Schnapps,

[00:17:20] I would argue that you could have said that,

[00:17:25] maybe it's a secret Burgenland specialty or something.

[00:17:28] Pia: Because nobody knows about, yeah. [laughs]

[00:17:30] Christina: [amused] I don't know anything about it, just like Swiss stone pine pillows in Tyrol.

[00:17:34] Pia: Exactly, that's just made up ... [laughs]

[00:17:36] Christina: But of course it's also a bit of a joke.

[00:17:39] Pia: Yes, exactly, just that.

[00:17:43] You play a little bit with this question of truth

[00:17:45] and ultimately "Nincshof" not only poses the question of whether you can erase yourself from the world,

[00:17:51] but also whether it matters at all what really is.

[00:17:56] History itself creates its own reality

[00:17:59] and the storytelling alone has already achieved a certain effect.

[00:18:03] What is true and what is invented loses a bit of its meaning.

[00:18:07] Because the story stands on its own.

[00:18:10] In the beginning I was a bit like, "No, it's important whether things actually happened or not."

[00:18:14] And at some point in the course of the story you think to yourself,

[00:18:17] "But they're so charming, I don't even want to know if they were real or not."

[00:18:21] That's not so relevant to me anymore.

[00:18:24] And that's why the book was almost like a modern Heimatroman for me.

[00:18:27] According to the motto, you can also think of home in a modern way.

[00:18:31] How was that for you?

[00:18:33] Christina: Well, I think in the context of such a nice novel,

[00:18:39] which of course has the intention of being fairytale-like,

[00:18:43] the truth doesn't play any role at all, of course. [laughs]

[00:18:46] And then you get involved in this kind of myth-making.

[00:18:49] But if the question is, is truth important, then yes, [both laugh]

[00:18:54] independent of fiction.

[00:18:57] But there are very, very many anti-homeland novels in the Austrian literary landscape.

[00:19:03] And rightly so, there are many things that need to be dealt with,

[00:19:07] and should be criticized.

[00:19:08] And village landscapes often don't come off well.

[00:19:12] And "Nincshof" doesn't do it.

[00:19:14] I also have the feeling from this,

[00:19:16] to resist the anti-homeland novel.

[00:19:20] It's such a loving way of dealing with this urban-rural divide.

[00:19:26] And yes, but at the same time, of course, completely uncritical and apolitical, yes.

[00:19:36] But I think you can forgive the novel for that,

[00:19:39] because it's just so, just so loving.

[00:19:43] So, Pia, we've come to the end of our book review.

[00:19:50] So what's our conclusion?

[00:19:53] Pia: For both of us, I think it's thoroughly recommendable,

[00:19:56] especially as a debut.

[00:19:58] You have lovely, slightly exaggerated characters with lots of quirky quirks.

[00:20:04] They are drawn so wonderfully perfectly.

[00:20:05] The humor is loving and absurd.

[00:20:08] But it doesn't end there.

[00:20:10] It's a warm-hearted read, light-hearted and not insubstantial, for us.

[00:20:15] So perhaps the perfect summer read.

[00:20:18] Exactly. - Christina: Yeah, cool. So I didn't miss a second of the novel,

[00:20:21] that I spent with the novel, I have to say.

[00:20:24] It's always a good sign.

[00:20:26] Pia: Well, I always wanted to keep reading.

[00:20:28] Christina: By the way, it's also Johanna Sebauer's debut, right?

[00:20:30] Pia: Exactly.

[00:20:33] Christina: You have to say that again. Well, I'm really looking forward to when she brings out a new novel.

[00:20:35] Yes, and before we conclude now, we thought,

[00:20:41] we've put together a few reading recommendations,

[00:20:44] things that we're still reading on the side.

[00:20:47] Pia, would you like to start?

[00:20:49] Pia: Something we mentioned last time,

[00:20:52] in our "origin stories", we talked about "Dracula".

[00:20:55] And then I felt like it

[00:20:57] and started reading "Dracula" by Bram Stoker again.

[00:20:59] But not regularly, like you normally read. [laughs]

[00:21:02] But via "Dracula Daily", which is a newsletter,

[00:21:06] where you can read the letters and newspaper clippings of the epistolary novel in real time,

[00:21:10] just like in the novel.

[00:21:12] You just get an email every few days.

[00:21:14] It's a bit of a different way of reading a classic.

[00:21:16] But I found it charming.

[00:21:18] Especially in such small bites, it's quite easy to digest.

[00:21:20] Christina: And that's on right now, isn't it?

[00:21:22] Pia: Exactly, it's on right now.

[00:21:24] Christina: Is it free?

[00:21:26] Pia: Is free, exactly. Jonathan is somewhere in the castle right now.

[00:21:28] But it seems strange to him. [laughs]

[00:21:31] Christina: And then it's also a day for day with,

[00:21:32] you get a "letter" from Jonathan -

[00:21:34] Jonathan Harker is the protagonist in "Dracula".

[00:21:36] Or maybe Dracula is the protagonist in "Dracula". [both laugh]

[00:21:38] Pia: Exactly.

[00:21:40] Christina: Cool.

[00:21:42] Pia: And you? What are you reading right now?

[00:21:44] Christina: I've been reading "Hunchback" by Sao Ichikawa,

[00:21:49] that's a Japanese author.

[00:21:51] It's a novella,

[00:21:54] which deals with the point of view of the physically severely disabled protagonist

[00:22:00] from the point of view of the physically disabled protagonist.

[00:22:01] It's about autonomy and sexuality, also in disability.

[00:22:04] And also about the topic, a bit more on the side,

[00:22:07] The care crisis in the industrialized country of Japan.

[00:22:10] This is also a current topic for us.

[00:22:13] There have also been a lot of parallels.

[00:22:17] As I said, a very, very short book.

[00:22:19] The Japanese author has congenital myopathy.

[00:22:22] And that was kind of a,

[00:22:27] in the American world they say, "own voices" novel.

[00:22:30] I've never read one by a female author,

[00:22:33] who also has this disease.

[00:22:36] And who writes literature from her point of view.

[00:22:40] And that was a total reading experience.

[00:22:43] It's really short.

[00:22:45] I think, honestly, everyone, everyone, everyone should read it.

[00:22:48] And it also won the prestigious Akutagawa Literary Award in Japan.

[00:22:54] It's on the longlist for the International Booker Prize.

[00:22:56] That's a big prize in the UK.

[00:22:59] Wow, so it's weird.

[00:23:03] It blows you away because you get the perspective and the emancipation,

[00:23:11] with which it is written, not necessarily ... certainly not everyone is used to.

[00:23:17] Pia: It sounds interesting.

[00:23:19] And Japanese literature is very much in at the moment anyway.

[00:23:23] You have to say.

[00:23:24] Christina: And it's not a feel-good novel.

[00:23:26] I want to say that up front. [both laugh]

[00:23:28] Not a bookstore with a cat.

[00:23:30] Pia: Yeah, then we'll say thanks for listening.

[00:23:33] And we look forward to seeing you again next time.

[00:23:36] Christina: Please remember to subscribe if you don't want to miss another episode.

[00:23:41] Tell us what you think about "Nincshof" at post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at.

[00:23:48] You can also leave us topic requests there.

[00:23:52] Also for all other formats in the foreword.

[00:23:56] And you can also reach us via Instagram stadtbibliothek.innsbruck.

[00:24:01] We wish you happy reading.

[00:24:03] Pia: Bye!

[00:24:05] [Outro music]

[00:24:28] [Pia speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library

[00:24:31] and part of the Stadtstimmen,

[00:24:33] the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Pia speaks]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library [modulated]

[00:00:06] Boris: "Das Unbehagen" published in 2025 by Residenz Verlag.

[00:00:14] Das Unbehagen takes us on a journey under the thin skin of civilization and into an overwhelming nature.

[00:00:24] It is a diffuse unease that increasingly afflicts the teacher Lorenz Urbach, a political dissatisfaction, an excessive demand, an overflow.

[00:00:37] Suddenly an unknown aggression bursts out of him. He gets into a fight and loses the ground under his feet.

[00:00:47] When reports emerge of a bloodthirsty animal that seems to be wreaking havoc in the Alps, old memories are awakened in Lorenz.

[00:00:58] The media speculate. Is it a wolf or perhaps a human after all?

[00:01:04] And Lorenz thinks of his childhood friend Theresa, the outsider, the dropout, the one who was always prone to violence.

[00:01:14] He sets off on a lonely hike in the mountains, exposing himself to the forces of nature in search of the monster out there and the source of the violence within him.

[00:01:42] [Intro music] Boris: Hello and welcome back to the foreword: Short and sweet. Today with Thomas Arzt and my name is Boris Schön.

[00:01:52] Yes Thomas, nice to have you here. Like all our guests, may I first ask you to briefly introduce yourself?

[00:01:59] Thomas: Yes, hello, thank you for inviting me. I'm Thomas, Thomas Arzt, born in 1983, my forties are behind me. Writing has always been part of my life, but I never planned to actually do something like this for a living.

[00:02:18] And I studied in Vienna, a lot of different things, theater, film and media studies, among other things, and I was always at the Schauspielhaus Wien and that's where my enthusiasm for theater took hold.

[00:02:32] I applied for a workshop, a writing workshop, and developed my first drama there and it won a prize, the Hans Gratzer Scholarship, and then Grillenparz was performed at the Schauspielhaus Wien in 2011 and since then I've been able to make a living from writing and I'm very happy about it.

[00:02:55] I mainly write for theater, for radio and I've always wanted to write prose, that's more of a long distance for me, the marathon, and I completed that for the first time in 2021 with the novel "Die Gegenstimme" and it was selected as a book at Innsbruck liest, which was really great,

[00:03:21] I've been to these readings in Innsbruck for a long time and I still have very fond memories of them and now a second novel has been written and that's why I'm here today, reading from "Unbehagen".

[00:03:34] Boris: So as you've already said, you were in Innsbruck in 2022 with your first novel at the "Innsbruck reads" event and 10,000 books were distributed in the city, which I would say is quite a high-profile literary event and what do you remember from that time?

[00:03:56] Do you have any special memories? Were there moments that perhaps still pop up sometimes or something?

[00:04:03] Thomas: Well, it's about direct encounters with people, that's great, because they're presented with contemporary literature, that's unusual, it's not about a bestseller with broad appeal, but there's something you have to deal with.

[00:04:18] The novel deals with a serious topic, it's about National Socialism and the Anschluss vote in 1938, I'm half telling a family story, a village story, it was also a political event and there was this book signing, I think, in the shopping mall and I wasn't prepared for how many people knew that the book existed, that people could come and see me and because I'm telling a family story, everyone then also tells

[00:04:47] their family stories, from back then, what it was like, I have to ask grandpa and grandma or I have to take a look myself and then also such negative things: There was a man, I think he just said it like that, vocatively from afar, [in dialect] "with the book you can just wipe the slate clean" and that's just great that you have these encounters and then right after that someone who,

[00:05:16] who finds it totally inspiring and important to talk about the past, I think it's unique in Austria that you can actually reach a whole city with it and I think Innsbruck is a good size, it really was the talk of the town for a short time.

[00:05:39] Boris: You said earlier that you mainly work as a playwright and you've already said that the novel is a bit of a long haul for you, but nevertheless, once again, how does your approach differ or when do you suddenly have a subject or a topic where you say, now I would make a novel out of it and not a play perhaps or not a radio play.

[00:06:05] Thomas: I had the impression early on that it's the subject matter, I think it's a decision with me by now, I just felt very comfortable in drama, felt at home, it's also a craft that you develop and then when you stumble across a subject matter, you have the theme, you have characters in front of you, then I already play it out in my head, it's usually a Hollywood movie then of course and you hope that you can write a screenplay, then you also do what's pragmatic and that's what I've also done very well for myself

[00:06:34] and I did that with the people that you can work with and there were a lot of theaters that I connected well with.

[00:06:44] Then I took the material with me and at some point I thought, there's this rather private family story that became "Die Gegenstimme" and I decided for myself that I didn't want to give it to a theater, because a play is an unfinished text, it only becomes finished on stage through the process.

[00:07:03] I wanted to do something that I could do with myself and this personal family story was the right way to start a longer piece of prose and in the meantime I've felt that I understand it better and now I see the characters, wandering around and the themes more prose-like than before, perhaps dramatically, as a situation.

[00:07:26] It's also a pleasure, I think, that you have. I've done a lot of theater and a lot of plays about the past and now I've decided for myself that I want to write something about the present and I want to take more time.

[00:07:39] The narrative thread has a different tempo and a different breath. I have a hunch about something and an urgent question, that's the reason for writing. Something keeps me awake, I want to solve something and write through it not only for myself personally, but also for something that could possibly affect society.

[00:08:00] Then it's a text for me that I want to publish and I have a starting point that I start with. And then it's a search movement and I can break that down quite well.

[00:08:19] When I have the first few pages in front of me, I realize that's where it's going. And if that point doesn't come, then it's just too vague. Then I discard it and carry it around with me. It's like an initial spark that leads somewhere and an intuition that this could actually be a good story, but most of the time I don't know how it's going to turn out.

[00:08:43] Boris: And is that at the end when you say you feel like it's done, is it an image that you have or is it a solution to a question or a theme? You know what I mean?

[00:08:54] Thomas: [laughs softly] So I would say it's different. I think I've had moments where I've thought I've done a good job of it. Maybe it's not necessarily the best text because it's too closed. There are often a lot of question marks at the end.

[00:09:09] So a text usually takes me somewhere else again. It's more like you have the feeling that you've finished telling your story, even if you're not quite to the point. But I'm going to hand it over now because I'm already somewhere else.

[00:09:24] Every text doesn't necessarily have the same conclusive ending for me.

[00:09:30] Boris: Coming to "Das Unbehagen", your second novel, which, as I think you said before, is set more in the present. It's not a historical subject.

[00:09:42] I would say, perhaps in keeping with the title, it has a bit of an uneasy atmosphere. I'd be interested if you wrote about the present and then it gets a bit dark, the way it seemed to me when I read it.

[00:10:01] Do you have the feeling that the present is a bit dark?

[00:10:05] Thomas: Yeah, you can't wipe it off the table recently, that you're dealing with issues that I didn't think I would.

[00:10:16] So we're also very much used to talking about war. And then when you, I have two small children and I'm always

[00:10:26] trying to explain the world because the questions come.

[00:10:27] So when they hear something on the radio, because they hear us, as parents, talking about something,

[00:10:32] because they see pictures in the newspaper or conflicts in kindergarten

[00:10:35] are already a topic, "are you for Israel or Palestine, which flag do you think is better?"

[00:10:40] The children ask each other.

[00:10:42] So you're busy with world politics.

[00:10:44] That sometimes darkens the horizon.

[00:10:48] Fatal for me. That's why writing and trying to find something enlightening.

[00:10:55] And "Das Unbehagen" is already a journey through rather dark, depressive spaces.

[00:11:05] It's also about dreams, nightmares and the attempt to tackle the present somewhere,

[00:11:12] to somehow describe it and perhaps be a little more prepared as a result

[00:11:17] from what might come.

[00:11:19] So the protagonist doesn't emerge completely shattered.

[00:11:22] It's already about abysses based on encounters that he actually has in his mountain hike.

[00:11:34] I try to remain an optimist. [laughs softly]

[00:11:37] Boris: Now just a geographical aspect of your two novels, the "Gegenstimme"

[00:11:45] and "Das Unbehagen" is that both are set in Tyrol, at least to a certain extent.

[00:11:52] To be honest, I don't have an overview of all your plays to place them geographically. [amused]

[00:12:00] But how did that come about? Was that a coincidence?

[00:12:02] Were you perhaps at "Innsbruck reads"?

[00:12:04] even in Innsbruck and you thought, "ha, I'm going to do a bit of hiking,

[00:12:07] now I could write a book about the Tyrolean mountains" ...

[00:12:11] No, there is...

[00:12:12] So not with the Tyrolean, but you know what I mean.

[00:12:14] Thomas: I happen to have a nice connection with this city.

[00:12:18] I didn't know that the "dissenting voice" would lead me here.

[00:12:21] I wanted to research the story of my grandmother's brother.

[00:12:25] And I was no longer so familiar with the fact that he had studied in Innsbruck at the time, shortly before the Anschluss in 1938.

[00:12:32] And then it was about Innsbruck back then.

[00:12:35] And I was here with my wife for a year and a half.

[00:12:39] My wife wrote her doctoral thesis here.

[00:12:43] And we lived here and got to know the city.

[00:12:48] And it was an intense experience.

[00:12:51] And also, we went hiking a lot.

[00:12:54] And I wrote a short story back then, which was actually the trigger for this novel, for "Das Unbehagen".

[00:13:00] And that has to do with the mountains and with the rawness and coarseness of characters and language.

[00:13:08] And with myths that are attributed to the Alps.

[00:13:13] It's a nice game to make things up.

[00:13:17] And when I sat there again, I actually had this Innsbruck right in front of me again.

[00:13:23] And then I drove back here to retrace what I was writing so as not to ...

[00:13:28] So some things ... i wanted to be able to tell the topography of this hike in concrete terms up to a certain point.

[00:13:37] And I ... a few things slipped my mind, so I followed the routes.

[00:13:42] Boris: It's also a very, very vivid book, I think.

[00:13:46] So the places are very vivid, the characters are very vivid, I really think.

[00:13:49] So that's a huge reading recommendation here again for our listeners.

[00:13:53] It has so many elements, including elements of suspense.

[00:13:59] I think it's one of the best books I've read in recent years.

[00:14:04] Thomas: [laughs] Thank you.

[00:14:06] Boris: Now we come to a completely different topic.

[00:14:09] That's a bit of an ongoing issue.

[00:14:12] And we try to get a bit of an assessment from the authors we invite.

[00:14:18] The topic of artificial intelligence and literature.

[00:14:24] I'm putting it in a completely neutral space now.

[00:14:27] Do you have an opinion on this, do you see a risk, do you see an enrichment?

[00:14:32] Thomas: I constantly underestimate them, these algorithms.

[00:14:38] Gut feeling always says "push away and has nothing to do with me".

[00:14:42] And also the feeling "art is art".

[00:14:45] But artificiality and art have a lot to do with each other.

[00:14:50] So it starts with the fact that the machines I work with, the word processing programs

[00:14:57] offer it automatically.

[00:14:59] And I'm currently working on deactivating this co-pilot.

[00:15:04] And then it's already there and then I've already tried things and realized, well, it's still very manageable in that case

[00:15:17] and predictable, what is offered here in terms of text types and word choice.

[00:15:23] That's the thing, art writes itself over the expected.

[00:15:29] That's not enough to write a good novel.

[00:15:33] I also don't know if he's in favor of a revision with algorithms,

[00:15:36] whether that will really work in the near future because of the error-prone nature of it ...

[00:15:43] At the moment, I have the feeling that a good story has to fulfill certain points.

[00:15:53] And I had my novel summarized by the AI, for example.

[00:15:59] And then I deliberately built in mistakes so that the logic works.

[00:16:06] Because apparently the conclusion of the novel was not clear.

[00:16:10] And then the AI makes false claims so that the conclusion should be a correspondingly correct one.

[00:16:18] I also tried to write a libretto beginning about the middle of the AI because I wanted to try it out.

[00:16:26] And then you realize where the rhyme schemes come from and how uninteresting it quickly becomes.

[00:16:32] So for what I'm doing right now, I don't think I see any danger yet.

[00:16:37] But I know that in journalism it's already the case that text types are done by AI, much, much faster,

[00:16:44] from which revision processes go much faster; in the academic field, translation work.

[00:16:51] That probably improves a lot, it professionalizes a lot, it speeds up a lot again.

[00:16:58] I'm waiting and I need to know more about it, it will eventually rationalize me away.

[00:17:06] Boris: Do you think so?

[00:17:07] Thomas: I'm actually convinced of that.

[00:17:10] I hope that I will no longer be dependent on this business, on this art business.

[00:17:20] But it's possible that the business will change.

[00:17:23] Well, it's always the case that the techniques change, the cultures.

[00:17:28] And what is expected of art can change, even in political circumstances.

[00:17:33] And that's a great luxury that we have right now, that freedom is granted to art.

[00:17:39] And deviation from the norm, perhaps in 30 years, is expected of art.

[00:17:46] And it's also expected by funders that it has to do what the norm is and AI does it better.

[00:17:53] Boris: Maybe it's a bit, I was just thinking about it, a bit like the synthesizer that came along.

[00:18:00] And then of course, but the idea came to me because I thought, there's a premiere of a play.

[00:18:07] And then you say, in the presence of the author, this is program XY, sitting there in the front row.

[00:18:14] So you know what I mean, a synthesizer is also a device where you can somehow get everything out of it.

[00:18:19] But you need at least one more person to tweak it.

[00:18:23] Thomas: Yes, it's certainly something that's used to make something. So from a performance point of view, of course it's great, you feed it in, you see live what comes out.

[00:18:37] It can be very parodistic, I think. But it can also somehow foreshadow the dystopian.

[00:18:47] So you can deal with it in a productive way.

[00:18:49] But there are also a lot of people who understand it much better. In my specific area, it's still far away at the moment and it will probably be there very quickly and I've overlooked it. [laughs softly]

[00:19:00] Boris: Yes, thank you very much. And to conclude our short conversation, I'd like to ask you, as always, to give a reading tip for our listeners.

[00:19:12] Thomas: I'm reading something that I should have read much earlier. From the 1980s: Margaret Atwood, "The Handmaid's Tale".

[00:19:27] A terrifying vision of the future, so bizarre and so big. And it's really sucking me in right now.

[00:19:37] It's ultimately a classic already, but it's also very much about political events that are happening right now, authoritarian systems that are taking over and how you can be trapped in them.

[00:19:51] And this maid I want to break out. Great novel.

[00:19:56] Boris: Then I say thank you very much and I would say today, after the conversation, we have now then a positive evening on stage in this much unclear darkness that may be out there.

[00:20:10] Thank you for being there and for being there.

[00:20:12] Thomas: [laughs softly] Thank you.

[00:20:14] [Outro music]

[00:20:38] [Boris speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Boris speaks]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulates]

[00:00:06] [Intro music] Shelly: I just saw this on the shelf before: a chamomile tea, and I laughed so hard,

[00:00:26] because you know that meme that says "Still a gangster, I whisper to myself as I drink my chamomile tea with a heating pad on my back." [both laugh]

[00:00:34] That's how I feel every day. [laughs]

[00:00:38] Jaci: That's very accurate. - Shelly: But what kind of tea do you have?

[00:00:42] Jaci: Okay, I have a really good tea today that dear Shelly gave me.

[00:00:45] It's "Aunt Trudel's Apple Strudel", a fruit spiced tea.

[00:00:50] Shelly: And does it taste good?

[00:00:51] Jaci: Very good, yes, I'm very enthusiastic.

[00:00:53] Shelly: I have lavender lemon verbena today to calm me down.

[00:00:57] Jaci: You just started working and you need to calm down already?

[00:01:00] Shelly: Yeah. Jaci: Okay, fair.

[00:01:02] [Soundbite: Pouring tea, stirring, taking a sip with relish] Jaci: Hello and welcome to the preface, the podcast of the Innsbruck City Library.

[00:01:14] My name is Jaci, sitting opposite me is my lovely colleague, Shelly.

[00:01:18] And we're doing another episode of Teatime today.

[00:01:23] Shelly: Jaci, what's today's episode of Teatime about?

[00:01:28] Jaci: Today we're looking at the topic of DNF.

[00:01:33] And that means "Did not finish" and with our list that we created.

[00:01:39] Exactly, and I picked out a little definition again.

[00:01:42] I'm the queen of definitions.

[00:01:44] And the Redaktionsnetzwerk Deutschland, RND for short,

[00:01:49] has simply explained all the important Booktook terms in the article "Book Haul, Mary Sue, OTP".

[00:01:56] The DNF is described and it says:

[00:02:00] "Some books just can't wow their readers.

[00:02:04] If they don't even read it through to the end, they mark it accordingly as "DNF - did not finish".

[00:02:10] Exactly, and we've picked out a few today, our personal DNFs.

[00:02:15] Jaci: Very quick note, the colleague at work pointed this out to me,

[00:02:20] that the term DNF is also used in sports.

[00:02:23] Shelly: Really?

[00:02:24] If someone doesn't get over the finishing line or something like that, then it's also a "did not finish", a DNF.

[00:02:29] Shelly: Ah, okay. - Jaci: Fun fact.

[00:02:31] Shelly: You can actually apply that to all areas of life, right?

[00:02:34] Jaci: Yes, very good.

[00:02:36] Shelly: Universal term. [both laugh]

[00:02:39] Jaci: So, sorry, go ahead.

[00:02:41] Shelly: Okay, right, Jaci, how do we actually decide if a book is worth reading or not?

[00:02:47] Jaci: Exactly, so of course it's a very individual decision for each reader,

[00:02:53] but I personally always give myself 100 pages

[00:02:57] and if the book just doesn't pick me up after 100 pages, then I don't actually read it any further.

[00:03:03] And by what characteristics do I determine that it picks me up, so to speak?

[00:03:08] or doesn't pick me up, i.e. what my book icks would be when reading,

[00:03:13] that would stop me from continuing to read it.

[00:03:16] For example, if I don't like the protagonist,

[00:03:22] So just when I really think to myself while reading, Oida, so unlikeable and so [makes annoyed noise]

[00:03:29] And you just can't understand what the character is doing, that always really upsets me

[00:03:34] and then I can't read any further.

[00:03:36] That's different with novels, of course, where you know exactly that the author is going for it,

[00:03:41] that you don't like the character.

[00:03:43] Then it has a higher literary value, so to speak

[00:03:45] and then you can often do that somehow, then you read it completely differently.

[00:03:49] Like when it's actually an endearing character, but it's just so badly written,

[00:03:53] that it's just not fun to follow.

[00:03:55] It's the same with the writing when it just drags along,

[00:03:58] that I think to myself, no, it just doesn't work, then I won't read it any further.

[00:04:03] And one thing is, my mom taught me that,

[00:04:07] when you close the book and think about the story, it keeps you busy,

[00:04:12] then you have to keep reading it, but when you close it and you stop thinking about the book,

[00:04:16] then it just doesn't fit.

[00:04:19] And then you don't continue reading it.

[00:04:22] Exactly.

[00:04:23] Shelly: Yeah, it's the same for me actually.

[00:04:25] I know when it's really tough and when it doesn't go on.

[00:04:31] If I can't get through ten pages in an hour, then I know, maybe not for me.

[00:04:36] Jaci: And especially the bit about am I reading this book because it makes me happy right now?

[00:04:41] So does reading this book make me happy right now?

[00:04:43] Or am I just reading it because a friend recommended it and said it's good?

[00:04:47] Or boah, I just bought it, so now I have to read it.

[00:04:51] Or boah, now I've dragged it home from the library, now I have to read it or something.

[00:04:55] Or does it just make you really happy?

[00:04:57] I often find that important to differentiate.

[00:05:00] Shelly: You don't have to force yourself through the book. You can just leave it alone.

[00:05:05] Jaci: Exactly.

[00:05:06] Like my mom always says, "Life's too short for bad books."

[00:05:09] Shelly: Woah.

[00:05:10] Jaci: My mom is a very wise woman.

[00:05:11] Shelly: A wise woman, yes.

[00:05:12] Jaci: Yes.

[00:05:13] Shelly: Okay, then I would say let's get into our DNFs.

[00:05:16] Jaci: The first book that's on my DNF list,

[00:05:19] that I also have a lot of difficult emotions associated with,

[00:05:22] is "Crime and Punishment" or "Crime and Punishment" by Dostoyevsky.

[00:05:28] I had to read it for university, theoretically twice.

[00:05:34] And I started it twice and got as far as page 120 the first time.

[00:05:39] The first time and the second time up to page 130

[00:05:43] So unfortunately it didn't work out for me either time.

[00:05:48] For those who don't know the novel:

[00:05:51] It's by the Russian author Fyodor Dostoyevsky.

[00:05:54] And we follow the poor young student Rodion Raskolnikov in St. Petersburg in a novel.

[00:06:02] And he plans and commits a crime.

[00:06:06] He murders the pawnbroker Alyona Ivanova in order to steal her money.

[00:06:12] And then somehow accidentally kills her sister Lisaveta as well.

[00:06:16] And that happens in what feels like the first 20 pages.

[00:06:19] And then the rest of the novel is about Raskolnikov's feelings of guilt and fear

[00:06:25] with the crime. He asks himself a lot of moral and philosophical questions.

[00:06:30] And he is pursued by the police and meets different people.

[00:06:34] But you're really only in his head with his feelings of guilt.

[00:06:38] And that's also what really got me down.

[00:06:42] Because the excitement happens in the first 50 pages, so to speak.

[00:06:46] And then it starts to be just his inner monologue and he's constantly feverish and feverish.

[00:06:53] And it just disturbed me a little bit, first of all, that he thinks the way he thinks.

[00:06:59] Secondly, it also confused me because I just couldn't understand where his thoughts were coming from.

[00:07:04] And I just found him so unlikeable that I thought, just pull it together. [Shelly smirks]

[00:07:10] And just that, for me, it just doesn't happen enough for me to think, okay, this is worth reading.

[00:07:15] I also read through a lot of summaries so that I know what it's about for the university course [laughs].

[00:07:20] But then I decided after reading the summary that it wasn't worth reading any further.

[00:07:26] And I didn't enjoy reading this book at all.

[00:07:29] And the first time I read it I even told the professor at university that I hadn't finished it [laughs] because I didn't like it.

[00:07:35] But I was able to justify it a bit.

[00:07:37] Exactly, and everyone else in the university course thought it was great.

[00:07:40] And "No, that the human psyche has been explained so well" and I thought to myself, no, you just follow the thoughts of a madman like that.

[00:07:47] And no, it wasn't mine.

[00:07:49] Shelly [smirking]: That's interesting because I also had to read that for the same uni course, I thought it was totally awesome.

[00:07:54] Because it's not the normal crime story that you usually read.

[00:08:00] It happens at the beginning, you know who did it.

[00:08:03] And then this whole psychological process that gets him so fucked up, really cool.

[00:08:07] But look, tastes are different. - Jaci: No, unfortunately.

[00:08:10] Shelly: Okay, speaking of classics, I have one too.

[00:08:14] And it's "Wutherin Heights" by Emily Bronte. [Jaci draws in a sharp breath]

[00:08:20] You're shocked.

[00:08:22] Jaci: Yes.

[00:08:23] Shelly: Okay. - Jaci: One of the best books I've ever read. [both laugh]

[00:08:26] Shelly: Ah, that's a very contrarian episode then.

[00:08:30] Okay, so quick summary: "Wuthering Heights" by Emily Bronte tells the tragic love story between Heathcliff, an abandoned orphan boy, and Catherine Earnshaw.

[00:08:42] Their unrequited love leads to a spiral of revenge, hatred and suffering that destroys two families for generations and only in the next generation is there hope for reconciliation.

[00:08:55] And the novel is dark, passionate and a classic of world literature.

[00:09:00] Jaci: Amen.

[00:09:01] Shelly: [laughs] Amen.

[00:09:02] Exactly.

[00:09:03] I started reading a lot of English classics at the end of my school career, just before my A-levels, because I started with "Pride and Prejudice" by Jane Austen.

[00:09:14] And that's my all-time favorite book ever.

[00:09:17] I love it.

[00:09:18] I could read it every day.

[00:09:21] I love it!

[00:09:22] And then I also read "Jane Eyre" by another Bronte sister, Charlotte, and I really liked that too.

[00:09:29] Then I thought to myself: Hm, I'll give Emily a chance too.

[00:09:33] But I didn't even get to the first 100 pages because the language was too complex for me.

[00:09:41] My English wasn't that mature yet.

[00:09:44] And it was so difficult to read, I had to look up every second word of this old English, this edition is more like a vocabulary book than a novel. [laughs]

[00:09:53] And that was just too exhausting for me.

[00:09:55] And yes, I never tried to read it again. [laughs]

[00:10:00] Can't deal with my own failure.

[00:10:03] Jaci: Maybe we need to make a pack.

[00:10:05] I'll reread Crime and Punishment and you reread Wuthering Heights.

[00:10:09] Shelly: Yeah, fine with me.

[00:10:10] We can do that. [both laugh]

[00:10:11] Right, that's why, never finish reading.

[00:10:15] Jaci: So I'm moving away from the classics now and going to a young adult novel.

[00:10:21] And that's "Crave" by Tracy Wolff.

[00:10:24] Shelly: I don't know it.

[00:10:25] Jaci: No? So "Crave" is a whole series.

[00:10:27] You don't even remember what the next volumes are called.

[00:10:29] And I'll briefly summarize the content of the first part.

[00:10:34] After the accidental death of both parents, Grace is sent into a cold exile.

[00:10:40] Because she has to go to Alaska to the secret boarding school of her uncle, whom she doesn't really know.

[00:10:46] Things are not right there.

[00:10:49] And the students are all very mysterious.

[00:10:52] Especially the young, dark Jaxon, who is spelled X.

[00:10:56] Jaxon Vega.

[00:10:58] And Grace is inexplicably attracted to him,

[00:11:01] despite all the warnings that she's not safe around him. [Shelly laughs quietly in the background]

[00:11:06] But Jaxon doesn't have his reputation for nothing.

[00:11:09] The closer she and the irresistible "bad boy" get [smirking], the greater the danger for Grace.

[00:11:17] Yeah, so maybe you can tell how I read the content, [laughs]

[00:11:21] I was reading, so I think I only read two or three chapters.

[00:11:25] And then I thought to myself, for God's sake.

[00:11:28] How many clichés can a novel serve?

[00:11:31] In the first page, her parents die.

[00:11:34] In the second page, she goes into exile.

[00:11:37] In the third page, she goes to this mysterious boarding school that no one has ever heard of.

[00:11:42] And on the fourth page, during the tour of the boarding school,

[00:11:46] she meets this Jaxon guy.

[00:11:49] And the first sentence he says to her: [disguised voice] "Stay away from me." [Shelly laughs]

[00:11:53] Before he even knows who she is, and I'm like:

[00:11:57] That's a little intense.

[00:11:59] And then I thought to myself, no, I don't really care how it ends.

[00:12:02] Spoiler: They fall in love with each other.

[00:12:05] Shelly: Don't they, really?

[00:12:07] Jaci: Yeah. And I knew what was going to happen from the beginning, though.

[00:12:10] And books with clichés can be good.

[00:12:13] There are a lot of YA books that I like to read too, even if they're all clichés.

[00:12:18] But that was too much for me.

[00:12:20] Well, it was just so much in the first three chapters.

[00:12:25] Especially because the writing style was just so clumsy and not well written.

[00:12:30] And not somehow that at least says beautiful, poetic language or something.

[00:12:34] It was so clumsily and obviously simply written, I had to give up.

[00:12:40] Shelly: Okay, I get it.

[00:12:42] The way you just told it, I get you. [both laugh]

[00:12:43] Jaci: "Irresistible bad boy."

[00:12:46] "Stay away from me." [both laugh]

[00:12:49] Shelly: Okay, my next one:

[00:12:51] Maybe a shocker.

[00:12:53] George R. R. Martin, "The Song of Ice and Fire."

[00:12:57] So the "Game of Thrones" book series, the HBO series that we all love.

[00:13:03] The epic fantasy book series tells of power struggles, intrigue and wars between

[00:13:08] noble houses in the fictional realm of Westeros, and as the families clash over the Iron

[00:13:13] throne, an ancient threat from the White Walkers grows in the North.

[00:13:18] At the same time, Daenerys Targaryen rises in exile, laying claim to the throne with her dragons

[00:13:22] to the throne.

[00:13:24] We know the story.

[00:13:25] She's so good, so good.

[00:13:28] But unfortunately I only made it to the third book and didn't read any more after that.

[00:13:34] Because first of all, these things are so thick, so unbelievably thick.

[00:13:39] Jaci: She's showing about 20 centimeters with her fingers right now, so we can see it all.

[00:13:44] Shelly: Exactly, so thick, so many words, so many letters.

[00:13:48] It just got too steep for me by the third book.

[00:13:53] I was kind of 13 when I read it, too. [laughs]

[00:13:56] It's debatable whether that's an appropriate age.

[00:13:59] I watched the series at the same time and knew what was going to happen.

[00:14:04] And then it wasn't worth the effort to read the book when I knew anyway,

[00:14:09] what happens, because then it just became tedious.

[00:14:12] But the storyline, the series and the books, they're good.

[00:14:17] They're really good.

[00:14:19] But then I kind of lost interest in them.

[00:14:23] I finished watching the series.

[00:14:25] We're not talking about the last two seasons.

[00:14:27] Jaci: [incredulous] The last two seasons?

[00:14:30] Shelly: Yeah, I didn't like the one before last and the last one.

[00:14:33] Jaci: Let's not start that now.

[00:14:35] We're not opening that Pandora's box right now.

[00:14:38] Very briefly on "Game of Thrones":

[00:14:40] I also read it when I was 16/17.

[00:14:43] And I've read them all.

[00:14:45] You're right, it wasn't worth it for me to continue reading it either.

[00:14:50] Because I think the series just filters out everything really good, important,

[00:14:55] that nothing is lost that doesn't really need it.

[00:14:59] And that's why the novels have no meaning for me when I watch the series,

[00:15:03] had no added value.

[00:15:05] And I have to say, I wasn't that impressed by the writing style either.

[00:15:10] So I don't know what it is.

[00:15:12] It kind of reads like "The Witcher".

[00:15:15] So the "Witcher" series.

[00:15:17] And it's just kind of a bit boring, dragging.

[00:15:21] I hate to say that because I find both series and both authors quite admirable

[00:15:26] and they've really created worlds that are really, really great.

[00:15:29] But somehow you often realize that they are older works,

[00:15:34] that simply no longer correspond to my taste.

[00:15:37] So I agree with you on that.

[00:15:39] They're not easy books.

[00:15:41] Especially at 13, I started reading them very early on.

[00:15:44] So much for "Game of Thrones".

[00:15:46] My last book, I'll go into more detail now,

[00:15:49] I just DNF'd recently, like a couple months ago or something.

[00:15:53] And it's "A Study in Drowning" by Ava Reid.

[00:15:57] And I've been following that book on Bookstagram for a very, very long time

[00:16:01] and then I was actually excited and really wanted to read it.

[00:16:04] And then it came back in the library and then I thought to myself,

[00:16:08] "Well, I'll grab it now".

[00:16:10] But then I had to leave it under 100 pages,

[00:16:13] because I just couldn't get through it.

[00:16:16] Briefly about the content: It's about young Effie.

[00:16:19] And her biggest dream is to study literature,

[00:16:22] which she is not allowed to do in, or about literature in this fantasy world.

[00:16:28] Only men are allowed to study literature.

[00:16:30] She then studies architecture.

[00:16:32] And is of course mega talented in both.

[00:16:35] She then gets the unique opportunity through her university

[00:16:38] and, as an architecture student, is allowed to take over the estate

[00:16:42] of her favorite deceased author.

[00:16:45] And there she meets the mysterious Preston,

[00:16:50] who is a literature student and is allowed to study literature

[00:16:54] and who is compiling or bringing together the author's estate, so to speak.

[00:16:59] And the two of them somehow come across legends about an elf king,

[00:17:05] while they're in this very dark area.

[00:17:09] So it's the southernmost point of the continent.

[00:17:12] And there's only fog and only gray and showers and terrible.

[00:17:15] Effi just can't stand this Preston from the beginning

[00:17:18] and they both try to find out the secrets of the estate somehow.

[00:17:23] And it actually sounds a bit cool and dark in principle,

[00:17:26] but it was kind of too mysterious and creepy for me,

[00:17:31] because there was so much fog that you couldn't stand it anymore.

[00:17:35] There were just so many coincidences that came together,

[00:17:39] that she was really allowed to renovate a property as a very young student,

[00:17:44] because she's so talented and so lucky.

[00:17:47] She was a bit conceited because she said she was so brilliant,

[00:17:51] she should be allowed to study literature somehow.

[00:17:53] And I understand that it upsets her that she's not allowed to do it as a woman, so I'm right there with her.

[00:17:59] But she was just so unapproachable for me.

[00:18:02] And then it was just kind of too forced,

[00:18:05] this too forced loneliness, too forced gloom,

[00:18:08] that's a really bad relationship with her mother,

[00:18:10] which she doesn't understand, because everyone should just talk to each other.

[00:18:13] But yeah, just ... Shelly: Frustrating.

[00:18:16] Jaci: It was very frustrating, yeah.

[00:18:18] It was very forced just everything.

[00:18:20] So unfortunately I had to let it go.

[00:18:22] Shelly: So three times no. [Laughs]

[00:18:24] Jaci: Yeah, I don't have a picture for you today.

[00:18:27] Shelly: Well, then to my last one, where I have to go a little bit further now,

[00:18:31] because it's a little bit very specific.

[00:18:33] And that's the midwife saga by Sabine Ebert,

[00:18:36] which is a historical novel series, comprises five books.

[00:18:40] And I stopped reading at the fourth volume, "The Curse of the Midwife".

[00:18:44] Briefly about the content:

[00:18:46] The historical novel series follows young Marthe,

[00:18:49] a clever midwife in the 12th century,

[00:18:52] a very young midwife,

[00:18:54] who has to flee her village after a dramatic incident.

[00:18:57] She joins a band of settlers led by the knight Christian,

[00:19:01] and helps to build Christiansdorf. [laughs]

[00:19:04] Yes, but that is historically documented.

[00:19:07] Christiansdorf, which later becomes Freiberg.

[00:19:10] In the midst of political upheavals, intrigues and battles,

[00:19:13] she asserts herself as a healer and strong woman

[00:19:15] in a world dominated by men.

[00:19:18] Exactly.

[00:19:20] And this series gives exciting insights into medieval life.

[00:19:24] Very well written, very well executed,

[00:19:28] I read it when I was 13. [laughs bashfully]

[00:19:31] I matured very early, okay?

[00:19:33] Jaci: At 13, I was still reading my friend Connie.

[00:19:36] Shelly: Yeah, sorry. [laughs]

[00:19:38] Well, I was very young,

[00:19:40] and so this historical context,

[00:19:42] the political intrigues and so on were less interesting to me,

[00:19:45] which would of course be much more exciting for me nowadays.

[00:19:48] But I was completely hooked by this love story between Marthe

[00:19:51] and Christian that developed, the midwife and the knight.

[00:19:54] [ecstatic] Oh God, it was so great. [Jaci laughs]

[00:19:56] It was so great!

[00:19:58] Shelly: [rapturously] Wait a minute, I need to collect myself...

[00:20:03] Jaci: [laughing] Do you need a minute?

[00:20:05] Shelly: Definitely a huge, huge spoiler warning at this point.

[00:20:10] Anyone who wants to read the books, we don't have them in the library I looked,

[00:20:14] should probably turn away now.

[00:20:16] Christian dies [Jaci draws in a sharp breath] in the third part of the series.

[00:20:22] He dies in a very, very sneaky way.

[00:20:26] And I can still remember the exact day,

[00:20:29] the day I finished reading this third part.

[00:20:31] It was a summer day.

[00:20:34] I was at home, I was on vacation,

[00:20:36] and it was raining, I remember that, raining quite heavily,

[00:20:40] there was a thunderstorm.

[00:20:42] And I also had a fight with my mom that day,

[00:20:45] and then I had to go to my room,

[00:20:47] and then I wasn't allowed to go out again.

[00:20:49] But that was fine with me at the time,

[00:20:51] because I wanted to have my peace and quiet anyway and I wanted to read.

[00:20:54] And then I'm sitting there in my rocking chair, unaware of anything

[00:20:57] and waiting for Ritter Christian

[00:21:00] out of a dicey situation again,

[00:21:02] because this guy has a real talent,

[00:21:04] he's always been in such life-threatening situations,

[00:21:07] but he always somehow wriggled out of it,

[00:21:10] and I was so sure of that,

[00:21:12] that it would end well again,

[00:21:14] because I was only on the third part of the series of five parts.

[00:21:18] And who leaves a main character?

[00:21:21] who is also the great love of the protagonist,

[00:21:24] [outraged] die in the middle of the series?

[00:21:28] I'm building up this epic love story over three books,

[00:21:32] and then ... [sighs heavily, Jaci laughs] I was so, so unprepared for that,

[00:21:38] and I was crying my eyes out.

[00:21:41] I was so devastated,

[00:21:43] my sobs must have been so loud,

[00:21:45] that my mom came into the room

[00:21:47] and felt so guilty,

[00:21:49] because she thought I was crying so much because of her. [Jaci interjects: Meina!]

[00:21:51] But she didn't care at that moment. [laughs]

[00:21:54] Jaci: It was all about Christian!

[00:21:57] Shelly: Yes, in any case, the day was over for me,

[00:22:00] and mom read the series too and wanted to convince me,

[00:22:04] that I should keep reading,

[00:22:06] because "Marthe will still be very happy without Christian,

[00:22:09] and it turns out quite well", but I was so offended. [Jaci makes a regretful noise]

[00:22:12] I even started the fourth part, like I said,

[00:22:15] but then I stopped it because I thought to myself: No!

[00:22:18] And I will never finish reading this series.

[00:22:21] So! ... Now that I'm talking about it,

[00:22:23] I realize how much it still bothers me

[00:22:25] after ten years. [both laugh]

[00:22:27] But yes, that's my DNF.

[00:22:29] Jaci: Yes, I'm very sorry ...

[00:22:31] that this episode upset you so much.

[00:22:33] Shelly:I'm very upset ... my heart rate just went through the roof. [laughs]

[00:22:35] Jaci: It's much worse than mine,

[00:22:37] and "Crime and Punishment". [both laugh]

[00:22:39] Shelly: Yeah, but that's the way it is.

[00:22:41] Some books just take us away.

[00:22:43] Jaci: They trigger emotions. [Shelly sighs.]

[00:22:45] Shelly: Is there actually a book,

[00:22:49] that you wish you hadn't read, that you struggled through?

[00:22:55] Jaci: A lot.

[00:22:57] So the top 3 that I could name right now,

[00:23:01] would be, for example, "The Cruel Prince" by Holly Black,

[00:23:05] I've read the whole series,

[00:23:07] because I wanted to know what the hype was.

[00:23:09] I didn't understand what the hype was until the end. [Shelly: Okay.]

[00:23:13] Terrible, I didn't like it at all.

[00:23:15] Then "Yellow Face" by R.F. Kuang.

[00:23:19] So this bestseller.

[00:23:21] Terrible, so I didn't like it at all,

[00:23:23] I found the book really, really bad.

[00:23:25] And "Verity" by Colleen Hoover.

[00:23:29] Shelly: [laughs in surprise] Yeah! - Jaci: Terrible.

[00:23:31] I read it in one day, so it only took me one day,

[00:23:33] but I'd like to have that day back. [both laugh out loud]

[00:23:37] Could say more, but...

[00:23:39] Shelly: It's beyond the scope now.

[00:23:41] Jaci: It's beyond the scope.

[00:23:43] Shelly:We could do episodes, books,

[00:23:45] that we never should have read, want to read.

[00:23:47] Because I've got it on my desk,

[00:23:49] a whole genre, which is dark romance. [Jaci: Oh!]

[00:23:53] I read it and I was so disturbed

[00:23:57] and so disgusted that I left it alone ...

[00:24:01]

[00:24:03] Okay, maybe if you're interested in an episode of Dark Romance,

[00:24:07] then we need to prepare a little better.

[00:24:09] Then write us that, post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at

[00:24:15] or innsbruck...

[00:24:17] no, "stadtbibliothek.innsbruck" on Instagram.

[00:24:19] And let us know if you're interested.

[00:24:23] And otherwise I would say,

[00:24:27] write us what your DNFs are.

[00:24:30] We would be very interested in that too.

[00:24:32] Jaci: And which of the books we should try again,

[00:24:34] except the midwife saga. [Laughs]

[00:24:36] Shelly: No, we're not doing that.

[00:24:38] Jaci: But if you tell us that book wasn't so bad,

[00:24:40] maybe you should bite through it and read it,

[00:24:42] write it to us too.

[00:24:43] We're not like that.

[00:24:44] Exactly, in that sense, thank you very much for listening,

[00:24:47] and we'll see you next time.

[00:24:49] Bye.

[00:24:50] [Outro music]

[00:25:13] [Pia speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library

[00:25:17] and part of the Stadtstimmen,

[00:25:19] the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Pia speaks]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulated]

[00:00:07] Boris: "Zitronen" by Valerie Fritsch was published by Suhrkamp in 2024.

[00:00:15] August Drach grows up in a house on the edge of the village that is both hell and paradise.

[00:00:22] Disappointed with himself and life, his father mistreats his son,

[00:00:27] He only has tenderness for the dogs.

[00:00:30] August finds solace with his mother, who lovingly cares for him.

[00:00:35] But when his father leaves the family, his mother's affection changes.

[00:00:40] She secretly mixes medicine into August's food, weakens the child and makes him ill.

[00:00:46] She expects attention and admiration from his care.

[00:00:51] Only years later does August manage to free himself from his mother's clutches.

[00:00:56] To lead an independent life, to experience first love.

[00:00:59] But how does an adult learn to solve the riddle of childhood?

[00:01:04] in which cruelty and love are inseparable?

[00:01:08] How does he break the cycle of lies and deceit?

[00:01:12] And what happens when this person ventures back to the source of the pain years later?

[00:01:21] [Intro music]

[00:01:35] Hello and welcome back to the foreword "Short and sweet".

[00:01:41] Today with Valerie Fritsch and my name is Boris Schön.

[00:01:46] Yes, Valerie. Nice to have you here.

Nice to meet you.

[00:01:49]

Valerie:

Yes, thank you for having me.

[00:01:51] Boris: As always, the first thing I would ask you to do is to introduce yourself.

[00:01:55]

Valerie:

This is very simple. I'm Valerie and I'm a writer. [Boris laughs softly]

[00:01:59] Boris: You're this year's Innsbruck Read author and I'll just ask you now:

[00:02:05] Have you heard of the campaign before or was it completely new to you?

[00:02:09]

Valerie:

Actually, I knew it from other cities, don't know where.

[00:02:12] I didn't know that Innsbruck was doing it too.

[00:02:14] And when I got the mail, I was very old-fashioned happy

[00:02:19] and was surprised and thought it was very nice that I was allowed to be there.

[00:02:23] Do you have the feeling that you're an author who is writing for a print run of 10,000 books in a small town?

[00:02:29] or do you feel like an author for a campaign like this?

[00:02:32] I don't know, I've always felt that way. How do you feel about that?

[00:02:35] So are there authors who don't feel ready for it

[00:02:38] or don't write the right genre or the wrong story?

[00:02:42] I found it surprising because it's a complicated, demanding text.

[00:02:46] Which also deals with this theme of violence in many different shades.

[00:02:51] That's why I thought it was actually quite a brave choice for such a large distribution program.

[00:02:55] And it's also particularly nice that you have the confidence to do this and also to trust the readers, the potential readers, and the female readers.

[00:03:01] Boris: Yes, I think that's great too, yes.

[00:03:03] I think it's very good that the jury chose you this year.

[00:03:09] Yesterday was the opening event and today, you've just come from a book signing.

[00:03:16] What were your first impressions in Innsbruck with the readers?

[00:03:21] Valerie:

Very nice, it was quite lively and full of feedback.

[00:03:24] Many people came afterwards and told me their own stories.

[00:03:29] Sometimes very secretly behind their backs, their own experiences of violence, things that happened to them.

[00:03:35] And that's always ... are moments of great intimacy, which then suddenly happen, even though you're strangers,

[00:03:41] actually arise through such a book or through such an action, through such a publicity.

[00:03:45] And that's always particularly nice, because it's so unexpected that there's room for it in this world.

[00:03:51] Boris: You said in a conversation, I don't remember, I think at the book fair or something, I listened to it in a podcast,

[00:03:59] you said that you actually tried to approach the subject of violence or to approach this phenomenon of violence,

[00:04:05] because it was so foreign to you [Valerie makes an approving noise], I'm guessing.

[00:04:11] So the one question, what did you find out?

[00:04:14] And the other question, how did that affect this book?

[00:04:17] Valerie: Yeah, actually the starting point was that violence and ubiquitous violence happens everywhere,

[00:04:24] you read about it in the newspaper all the time,

[00:04:26] and you always say the nice sentence: "I can't even imagine" that this is happening or that someone is doing this.

[00:04:32] That's why I had the feeling that it was so foreign and distant to me and I had to somehow get closer to it so that I could understand it better.

[00:04:38] And then I started, bit by bit, with specialized literature, and then

[00:04:41] with these very, very many conversations with those affected, with the victims of violence, with the perpetrators of violence and the murderers,

[00:04:48] bit by bit, as far as you can, it's always just an approximation to get closer.

[00:04:55] And in the end, of course, I had no understanding for the crime, but I understood it better.

[00:05:00] The many stories and the essences of them somehow told me more about violence

[00:05:06] and also about our society and also about the speechlessness and how many people also confuse love with violence,

[00:05:13] only really became clear to me afterwards.

[00:05:16] And the most beautiful sentence ... or "the most beautiful sentence", the [emphasized] most terrible sentence, the most practical sentence about what is violence

[00:05:22] and why does violence happen? "Violence is often a practical solution to an impractical problem."

[00:05:28] That's how the murderers described it to me.

[00:05:31] Boris: Sorry to ask, I hope it's okay, but has it changed you too, this process?

[00:05:35] Valerie: It definitely touched me, it didn't let me go.

[00:05:41] Especially in other research that I've done in the last few years or in the last decade,

[00:05:47] I've always been able to get out of them, even if they were intimate topics, but I kept a certain distance.

[00:05:53] That wasn't even possible for me in this research, because you're sitting with people who suddenly spend days or afternoons

[00:06:00] in a confined space, telling their worst pain or the greatest despair of their lives,

[00:06:06] Stories that are not really connectable because nobody knows them.

[00:06:09] And then when a woman sitting across from you who has survived a femicide attempt tells you about it,

[00:06:16] then you can no longer step back.

[00:06:18] And in fact, some of my interviewees, especially not only as a journalist, have been very difficult for me,

[00:06:25] professional interviewees, interview partners, but also as friends.

[00:06:32] You couldn't draw that line anymore and I didn't want to.

[00:06:36] And I always thought that they should stay in my life and if you can still be helpful to them somehow,

[00:06:41] then that's what I want to do. And then I don't give a shit about all this distance. [laughs]

[00:06:46] Boris: The professional, which then becomes private, a bit?

[00:06:49] Valerie: That really happened to me in that case, but I think it's also in the best sense when you let yourself be attacked by it, yes.

[00:06:58] Boris: Now to come back to that, so to speak, after this research process.

[00:07:03] So how did the book get started?

[00:07:05] Did you then have a story in your head during this research or how can I imagine that?

[00:07:12] Valerie: In the research process, I wanted to become a little bit smarter, of course.

[00:07:17] To somehow get closer, to understand more about it.

[00:07:22] And at the point where I have the feeling that I have grasped a bit of it and have come a bit closer to the essence,

[00:07:27] then I start to write.

[00:07:29] And build a fictional story from the many, many little true stories or partial stories and building blocks.

[00:07:37] And it's a bit like a Tetris game of truth, which is then put together.

[00:07:40] Piece by piece I begin to write and then at some point the great madness sets in and I

[00:07:46] am finished and that's a good thing. [laughs softly] - Boris: And then do you have the feeling that you have, you feel

[00:07:50] it's right, now it's said? Now it's said, yes, I know that for sure. You feel

[00:07:56] you feel the last sentence rolling out of you, not too much, not too little. You have to

[00:08:01] always be careful. I like to keep it short. When in doubt, I'd rather say too little than

[00:08:06] too much and then I know that for sure and that's also a relief when you realize,

[00:08:11] you've reached the end of it, years of work in which you've spent so much time on this topic

[00:08:17] has dealt with this issue. Violence has, so to speak, dominated my everyday life and that of my family for years

[00:08:22] dominated the conversation and then that was over and that's also a good moment and also a

[00:08:27] spooky one, because you miss it a bit, I think, because you're so deeply immersed in it

[00:08:31] into this matter. - Boris:I have two more questions about that. One is, what is it like for

[00:08:36] you this moment when you give the book out of your hands, so to speak, and don't know or read

[00:08:43] people are already reading the book during the process or is it like, you know what I mean, that you're like,

[00:08:47] like you're saying now, you work on something for years and then it's done and [Valerie, at the same time: Then

[00:08:52] you have to give it away] and then you get, I don't know, you're looking forward to the

[00:08:56] Resonance or are you afraid that they might or how is that, is that a growing feeling?

[00:09:02] It's a mixed process. So while I'm writing, only my husband as the first reader always reads

[00:09:07] reads parts of it. My editor actually only gets it at the end, when I'm finished

[00:09:11] and then when a book is actually finished and goes out and is published and this

[00:09:16] interface with the public, it's always a big prize, of course,

[00:09:20] where you don't know what's going to happen to you. It can be very cruel. Even the biggest

[00:09:26] praise can be cruel if you're always in the public eye like that and you're just ...

[00:09:31] there's also a form of abandonment as an author when everything is in there and then you're

[00:09:36] whether it's good or bad or accurate or inaccurate. But in this case it was quite

[00:09:42] special because so many people had told me their intimate stories. That was my biggest

[00:09:47] concern was that these people, even if they only told their own story in a half-sentence

[00:09:52] or their own pain, that they feel well represented, that they find,

[00:09:58] I worked precisely so that they feel recognized and that was very important to me.

[00:10:03] That worked wonderfully and so the biggest compliment with this book was not the

[00:10:08] criticism in the feuilleton, but that many child violence protection centers have started in Austria,

[00:10:14] to include this book in their specialist reading because they thought it was such a good book

[00:10:20] keyhole to get very close to such stories of violence and violent childhoods

[00:10:25] to look inside. And I was really pleased about that. - Boris: Have you ever had the experience,

[00:10:31] that you wrote a text and it was never finished and you had the feeling

[00:10:35] that it wasn't working or have you always kept all your writing processes to yourself until now?

[00:10:39] always been able to finish? - Valerie: Yes, of course that happens. You know that very well,

[00:10:43] you know that it's nothing. [laughs] It's nonsense that doesn't work and then you have to do it

[00:10:47] ruthlessly and simply delete it without looking back. - Boris: [laughs] Into the shredder. -valerie: Into the shredder,

[00:10:54] throw it away, flush it, never think about it again, don't keep it either, I guess. You have to

[00:10:59] really have to say goodbye to it completely. It just doesn't get better if it doesn't work.

[00:11:04] Boris: To come back to the topic of violence. I always have a bit of a feeling,

[00:11:10] that violence is male after all. - Valerie: Yes - Boris: Would you say that ... - Valerie: Not only, but I'm afraid mostly

[00:11:17] it's true. So the facts and figures say that most of the serious violent crimes, in domestic

[00:11:23] violence and homicides in general are committed by men. That doesn't mean,

[00:11:27] that there are no violent women, I don't want to say that, but it is in the

[00:11:31] proportionality is quite different. - Boris: And yet you already have a woman in the book,

[00:11:38] a mother who also commits violence. So if you take a different motivation,

[00:11:43] Was that important to you, that you thought there had to be a female part in it?

[00:11:47] Valerie: I didn't think of it that way. I was actually struck by this Munchausen's proxy syndrome

[00:11:52] mainly because it's such a wonderful example of the confusion of

[00:11:58] violence and affection. In other words, violence and tenderness, violence and love. It's a very perfidious

[00:12:03] form of this caring. And that looks like great love, like great sorrow. And

[00:12:10] it's actually a very, very mean form of violence so that this caring can take place in the first place

[00:12:15] can take place. And I think that is very, very often the case in very different relationship constellations

[00:12:20] often confused between men and women in romantic relationships. That one thing leads to the

[00:12:24] one leads to the other and one covers up the other and one justifies the other. And so

[00:12:30] I found it very exemplary and I wanted to show many different forms of violence in the book in general

[00:12:34] phenomena of violence. From A to Z, from small to large, from exotic to normal, somehow a little bit

[00:12:40] illuminate. - Boris: What also appears in the novel here and actually I think plays such an important role

[00:12:46] is dogs. How did you come up with the dogs? - Valerie: Yes, I'm generally a big animal lover.

[00:12:53] I would love to live with lots of animals and I can't resist any animal.

[00:12:57] That has kept me very busy. All these animal stories, of course, have animals with their dog eyes

[00:13:03] and their understanding. And that's so easy to love them. A lot of people who are involved with

[00:13:07] people have problems with people, they then throw themselves completely into animals. And I found that very beautiful

[00:13:12] to actually be embedded in this phenomenon of tenderness. People always say "bad people need

[00:13:19] dogs that secretly love them". - Boris: Yes, thank you very much for your answers and also the insights

[00:13:27] into this book from the outside, so to speak. I can only recommend everyone to read it and there are perhaps

[00:13:34] a few copies of the Innsbruck liest book are still on the way. Otherwise you have to get it from someone else

[00:13:39] borrow it or go and buy it again. And, as always, I would like to ask you at the end

[00:13:45] ask you to give a literary tip or a book tip for our listeners

[00:13:50] listeners. - Valerie: I just started reading, I haven't finished it yet, but it's beautiful,

[00:13:56] very condensed, in English: "Orbital" by Samantha Harvey. Last year's [editor's note: Men] Booker Prize. And I just looked it up,

[00:14:05] it's also available in translation, it's called "Orbits". A very small book about

[00:14:09] a day in space. Very, very poetic, very, very dense, very profound. It jumps out at you

[00:14:16] if you love language and for big thoughts directly to your heart, I can recommend it to all those who like this kind of thing

[00:14:21] very, very, very highly recommended. - Boris: Yes, thank you very much. And I'm already looking forward to today's

[00:14:27] event that we have in the botanical garden. And I hope the event sounds

[00:14:31] exciting, the way it started. - Valerie: I'm looking forward to it too. - Boris: Thank you. [Outro music]

[00:14:35] [Boris speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of Stadtstimmen,

[00:15:05] the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Boris speaks]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulated]

[00:00:07] [Intro music] Boris: Hello and welcome back to the preface "Kurz und Schmerzlos",

[00:00:28] Today with Thomas Nußbaumer and my name is Boris Schön.

[00:00:33] Yes, Thomas, nice to have you here.

[00:00:36] Thomas: Hello.

[00:00:37] Boris: Hello.

[00:00:38] First of all, I'd like to ask you to introduce yourself.

[00:00:42] Thomas: Yes, my profession is folk music researcher or as it's called in New High German: ethnomusicologist.

[00:00:49] I work at the Innsbruck branch of the Mozarteum University in Salzburg

[00:00:57] and my areas of responsibility are field research on musical tradition, mainly in the Alpine region,

[00:01:04] but also beyond that, organizing symposia, concerts and publications.

[00:01:12] Boris: Perhaps the most banal question, how did you come to this activity?

[00:01:18] I studied musicology and was lucky enough to study musicology at a time,

[00:01:26] where it was assumed that you should be interested in all possible fields of music

[00:01:35] and I was initially influenced by history, but then thanks to Manfred Schneider,

[00:01:46] I completed a so-called academic training course at the Tyrolean Folk Song Archive in the early 1990s,

[00:01:53] there I came into contact with exciting collections of sound recordings of folk music from East Tyrol and South Tyrol

[00:02:05] and then very soon undertook my own field research and was then employed at the Mozarteum in the same function.

[00:02:15] That's what started to interest me.

[00:02:19] Boris: And field research means you're from the Stanzlabend, so to speak, or I don't know, that might not be a Tyrolean music category,

[00:02:28] until the musical evening somewhere on the road or visiting parades or how can you imagine that?

[00:02:37] Thomas: Basically everything, yes.

[00:02:40] It starts with making contact with so-called tradition bearers and people who make traditional music and sing songs

[00:02:53] and includes interviews at their homes, where music is also played,

[00:03:01] through to recording sessions where several musicians come together,

[00:03:08] of course also the documentation of public events and a particular hobbyhorse is the carnival,

[00:03:16] and specifically the carnival as a musical and sonic event

[00:03:21] and that includes practically everything that belongs to field research, from individual interviews to the big parade.

[00:03:28] Boris: To what extent is authenticity a relevant category in this area?

[00:03:34] or is there authentic/not authentic or how can you categorize it, because before,

[00:03:38] I've forgotten a term now, preservers, I think, right?

[00:03:43] Thomas: Preserver, yes.

[00:03:45] Boris: You called them tradition bearers.

[00:03:48] Thomas: Yes, authenticity is one of those things, of course.

[00:03:54] I mean, objectively speaking, there is no such thing as authenticity.

[00:04:00] It's a subjective category if you apply it to culture or, in this case, to folk music.

[00:04:07] Basically, everything that people do is authentic.

[00:04:12] But authenticity as a quality feature is something that is set from the bottom up, so to speak.

[00:04:22] So there are interpretative bodies, for example in the folk music keeper or sometimes also researchers

[00:04:27] who say yes, this and that tradition is old and authentic and the other is less valuable,

[00:04:32] because it is young.

[00:04:33] These are all subjective criteria.

[00:04:35] But I try to be objective.

[00:04:39] Boris: Is that based on contemporary witnesses, so to speak, or how can you determine that?

[00:04:43] whether something is an old custom or a newer custom?

[00:04:48] If it appeared last year, then maybe it's more visible,

[00:04:54] but whether what since, what categories are we talking about,

[00:04:58] 200, 300 years or 30 years or so,

[00:05:01] or where are the boundaries or how do you determine that?

[00:05:05] Can you say that at all?

[00:05:07] Thomas: Basically, you take a historical approach to such questions.

[00:05:10] You look at what sources there are for certain pieces or for certain traditions

[00:05:17] and very often in the field of folk culture, these are oral sources.

[00:05:23] That means you have very little in writing.

[00:05:27] People have only been interested in folk music and folk culture since the last third of the 18th century.

[00:05:35] In other words, what came before that is partly beyond the scope of today's terminology.

[00:05:41] And basically, tradition is something changeable.

[00:05:45] So the songs that were sung in 1820,

[00:05:50] when Joseph Sonnleithner initiated such a large collection campaign throughout Austria in 1819,

[00:05:58] is completely different from what was sung around 1900 or what is sung today.

[00:06:05] The way music is performed is also changing.

[00:06:10] You can see that very well by comparing historical recordings with today's practice.

[00:06:17] So tradition changes and can also change.

[00:06:21] Which is perhaps always an important point with traditions, they often tie in with what has gone before,

[00:06:28] but there are always innovative spurts, there are also complete changes and that's exciting.

[00:06:34] Boris: I mean, I have an image for myself, for example Krampus parades, which are often accompanied by somewhat technoid music.

[00:06:43] That's of course a more recent development, I would have said as a layman. [laughs]

[00:06:47] But I can imagine that a lot of innovative things are happening and the whole thing is mixed up.

[00:06:53] Just as it is generally a topic in ethnology, where do things come from and how do they develop and where are new things added?

[00:07:01] Thomas: The boundaries between so-called "folk culture" and so-called "high culture" and so-called "pop culture" are fluid.

[00:07:10] These are actually categories that have manifested themselves in our minds, but in practice you borrow from everywhere.

[00:07:19] And it makes perfect sense that heavy metal can be used as a

[00:07:23] Kampus parade. You want to represent something really wild and loud and what

[00:07:28] is better suited to that. - Boris: Now I've seen on the Mozarteum website,

[00:07:32] that you have also researched the music of the Old Order Amish in Iowa and

[00:07:40] documented. First of all, who are the Old Order Amish?

[00:07:44] Thomas: [corrects pronunciation] Amish - Boris: Amish. Sorry. Yes. And how did that come about? - Thomas: [laughs] Yeah, that would be now

[00:07:51] almost a very long story, but just very briefly. So the Old Order Amish - or Amish -

[00:07:56] are a religious group, they come from the Anabaptist movement, which started around 1520

[00:08:09] came into being. However, the Amish have only existed since 1693 and are named after

[00:08:14] Jakob Amman, who was a Swiss, so from the

[00:08:19] canton of Bern, who somehow shaped this group with his ideas

[00:08:25] shaped this group. Today, the Amish only exist in North America, especially in the USA.

[00:08:31] Their characteristic is that they don't use electricity in their homes, so

[00:08:38] are not connected to the public grid, that instead of using cars, they use baggies

[00:08:42] driving around in baggies, that they avoid telecommunications, that they

[00:08:47] are unadorned and uniformly dressed. So they consistently follow the Bible

[00:08:54] and the commandment to avoid every form of luxury. - Boris: And how did it come about that you

[00:09:00] researched? - Thomas: Well, I have a colleague in Iowa who was a professor at the

[00:09:05] Iowa State University in Ames, Jin Tao, and I actually got to know him

[00:09:09] through my field research on folk music and National Socialism. And

[00:09:15] but he actually invited me to Iowa back in 2005 because there was a

[00:09:21] Carnival Symposium was there. So I spoke there about "Carnival in the Alps".

[00:09:27] And he then, so to speak, before the symposium, gave me a few hundred

[00:09:32] kilometers further into the southeast, where he has been working with Amish people for decades

[00:09:37] because they speak Pennsylvania German. That's another

[00:09:42] very important feature. And he was just a professor of German Language and has

[00:09:47] always brought his students there so that they could see that you don't have to go to

[00:09:52] Germany to listen to German, but that it's something that comes from the

[00:09:56] doorstep. And he was able to persuade them or convince them that they should

[00:10:01] to let me record them singing. So we have the most

[00:10:07] Amish recordings, because normally they can't be recorded.

[00:10:12] And at the moment we're writing a book about it. - Boris: And how do the chants sound? Is that

[00:10:18] classical, or how can you imagine it? - Thomas: Yes, they are very

[00:10:22] melismatic chants. That means a lot of notes per syllable, up to

[00:10:28] nine, sometimes even twelve notes. And the tradition is actually based on the

[00:10:34] Protestant choral tradition. In other words, they are melismatic

[00:10:38] sung chorales that are sung very, very slowly. That's why

[00:10:45] that's why the Amish call them slow tunes. And they form

[00:10:50] a contrast to the "fast tunes". So these are German American

[00:10:55] English spiritual songs. And of course there are also folk songs, children's songs,

[00:11:01] lullabies. So we've recorded a lot of them in several excursions since 2005

[00:11:09] and collected a lot of material. - Boris: Yes, very exciting. Now you're here today

[00:11:14] guest in the city library because we're having an evening on the subject of "Hymns"

[00:11:19] is about. It's also about a book "O my Austria" about the

[00:11:24] national anthem in Austria. For you as an ethnologist, if I ask the question like this

[00:11:29] may I ask, what significance do anthems have in this day and age or

[00:11:35] relevance? Because as a layman, it always seems to me that it's something from the

[00:11:39] past. - Thomas: Yes, it's always a very strange thing with the hymns.

[00:11:44] To my great astonishment, I read about an incident in Lower Austria

[00:11:48] in December last year, so December 2024

[00:11:54] Ukrainian was retroactively granted Austrian citizenship again, [00:11:58

[00:11:58] because he refused to accept Austrian citizenship at the award ceremony

[00:12:04] to sing the Austrian national anthem. The reasoning was obvious, could he therefore

[00:12:11] not identify with Austria, not with our values and so on

[00:12:15] and that's why his citizenship should be revoked immediately.

[00:12:20] On the other hand, when I think about it, you hear the national anthems during sports broadcasts,

[00:12:25] at international soccer matches, they stand there, some sing, some sing along incorrectly,

[00:12:31] some sing along properly. Yes, at the moment it just creates a feeling of

[00:12:36] community, of a national community, of patriotism. That is

[00:12:41] actually the purpose of national anthems, even state anthems, although

[00:12:48] of course the question is always who feels addressed by it.

[00:12:54] It's not that clear-cut. - Boris: Now we've come to the end of our conversation

[00:13:01] and I wanted to ask, do you have a book that you can recommend to our listeners?

[00:13:07] can recommend? - Thomas: Yes, I have a book that is always considered difficult to read

[00:13:14] and there are a lot of people who don't dare to read it because it's so thick

[00:13:20] and it also has two volumes and it's a novel that was never finished.

[00:13:28] Boris: [laughs] I already have a guess. - Thomas: It's "The Man Without Qualities". [Editor's note: by Robert Musil]

[00:13:31] Boris: Very good, yes, it's a great book. There's a bookseller in Innsbruck,

[00:13:36] the [name unintelligible] who says he's already read it twice.

[00:13:41] Thomas: I can understand that, because it's really, it's fascinating.

[00:13:46] You get drawn into these stories and I think it kind of fits the theme there

[00:13:52] Anthems as national symbols. It's actually, I mean, the novel is

[00:13:58] just stands somewhere for a certain image of Austria that you have.

[00:14:02] There's a lot of mentality or spirit in it.

[00:14:06] Boris: Yes, Thomas, thank you very much for the interview. Thank you for your time

[00:14:10] and I'm looking forward to tonight. - Thomas: Thank you too, Boris.

[00:14:36] [Boris speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of Stadtstimmen,

[00:14:42] the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Boris speaks]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulates]

[00:00:06] [Intro music] Shelly: Boah, so today I'm really bored on the trail.

[00:00:23] I forgot to pack myself a special good tea

[00:00:27] and I looked for another one in the break room, but I only found black tea.

[00:00:31] What do you drink?

[00:00:33] Jaci: I'm having a fruity bear today.

[00:00:36] Shelly: [both laugh] A fruity bear.

[00:00:38] Jaci: Sometimes I just need a fruit tea that pops.

[00:00:42] Shelly: Ah good, it's going to be fun today. [both laugh] [Soundbite: Tea is poured, cup clinks, tea is drunk]

[00:00:54] Shelly: Hello and welcome to the preface, the podcast of the Innsbruck City Library

[00:00:59] and today again with a new episode of Teatime, in which Jaci and I

[00:01:04] talk about internet culture and literature.

[00:01:08] And I can spoil you in advance, you won't hear much from me today in this episode,

[00:01:14] because it will mainly be Jaci guiding us through the episode today,

[00:01:18] because we're tackling a project close to her heart today.

[00:01:21] What's it about today, Jaci?

[00:01:23] Jaci: Today is the day of all days, [Shelly laughs] because today is about a very special topic.

[00:01:30] Today is about "A Court of Thornes and Roses", my favorite book series by Sarah J. Maas.

[00:01:36] Shelly: In German? - Jaci: "The Realm of the Seven Courts." We'll ignore the bad translation. [laughs]

[00:01:42] We're going to deal with the English ... so we're going to use "A Court of Thornes and Roses", the title,

[00:01:47] or the abbreviation "ACOTAR" - for the connoisseurs.

[00:01:52] Shelly: I count myself among the connoisseurs by now.

[00:01:55] So you may already know this series, "The Realm of the Seven Courts", from our TBR episode.

[00:02:02] And that was one of the top things I wanted to read this year.

[00:02:07] And it's now the end of March and I can proudly say I've already read them all in February.

[00:02:15] [Jaci claps, shouts, "Barvo"] Let's hear it!

[00:02:17] Yeah, so I'm ready for this episode.

[00:02:21] Jaci: Perfect, me too.

[00:02:23] I'm already sorry when I do long monologues, [laughs] Shakespeare-esque long monologues.

[00:02:29] But Shelly's here today to slow me down and it's gonna be great.

[00:02:33] Shelly: What's your background with this book series anyway?

[00:02:37] Why are you so obsessed with it?

[00:02:39] Jaci: I can't pinpoint exactly why I'm so crazy about the series or why I like it so much Mag.

[00:02:47] I started reading it when I was 16 and it was just one of the first fantasy series that just grabbed me.

[00:02:58] Well, I've read another series by the author called "Throne of Glass".

[00:03:03] And that's for younger readers and the "ACOTAR" series is for older readers, so YA, for young adults.

[00:03:15] And I simply fell in love with the characters and was enchanted by the world right from the start.

[00:03:23] And then I got older and the characters got older and it was just like growing with the characters.

[00:03:30] And [smiling] I also wrote my bachelor's thesis about the development process of the protagonist.

[00:03:37] And what distinguishes a fantastic development process or coming of age process, I also called it in the thesis, from a normal, so to speak, non-fantastic one.

[00:03:48] And spoiler, that's why we're going to talk a bit, so that I can contribute my expertise.

[00:03:54] Exactly, but I don't know exactly where my obsession came from, but I'm very glad that I was able to motivate, coerce or persuade dear Shelly to read the series.

[00:04:06] And am now looking forward to the sequel. I'm very nervous because I'm really looking forward to the episode.

[00:04:12] I'm euphorically nervous, if that makes sense.

[00:04:15] Exactly, I would ask Shelly now how she felt about reading the series. So what was your first impression of the series?

[00:04:25] Okay, so I have to say right up front, I read it in German because we have it in the library in German, both as a book and as an e-book.

[00:04:36] I alternated a bit between what was available, because this series is borrowed very, very often.

[00:04:42] Jaci: And rightly so.

[00:04:43] Shelly: I had a fight with someone, [both laugh] he always borrowed before me and I had to wait.

[00:04:49] The first part, "The Realm of the Seven Courts". What's the name of the first part?

[00:04:54] Jaci: "Thorns and Roses".

[00:04:55] Shelly: "Thorns and Roses", exactly. Yes. It was okay.

[00:05:01] I was thinking while I was reading it, boah, if I was 13, 14 years old now, that would pick me up so much.

[00:05:08] But now that I'm 23, it was rather nice, just sprinkled in between, it fits, it's nice.

[00:05:20] And then I said to Jaci, yes, it's not really my thing.

[00:05:25] And then Jaci said, wait and see, start with the second one.

[00:05:30] Jaci: Well, the second one is the best part in my opinion, it's also one of my absolute favorite books.

[00:05:35] I know you can't really favor anyone in a series, but the second book is just good.

[00:05:40] And I think they just get better and better because the author has simply grown with the series for me.

[00:05:46] And she's just totally evolved in terms of the worldbuilding.

[00:05:51] That's great.

[00:05:53] I'm glad you kept reading it.

[00:05:55] Shelly: Yeah, me too. No, really.

[00:05:56] So from the second book on, that's where I went.

[00:05:59] The worldbuilding, as you say, it was so much more believable, so much more authentic, as authentic as a fantasy book can be.

[00:06:07] And that was a really nice reading experience.

[00:06:11] We can argue about the fourth part.

[00:06:15] That's the more controversial book in the series.

[00:06:18] It's much thinner than all the others, it's somehow only about 400 pages, I think.

[00:06:23] Jaci: Not even.

[00:06:24] Shelly: Not once, right?

[00:06:25] And "this could have been an e-mail". [laughs]

[00:06:28] Jaci: No! - Shelly: That could have just ... nothing happened in there.

[00:06:33] That was so nice to read, so cute and sweet, a little bit Christmasy and nice.

[00:06:40] But nothing happened.

[00:06:41] You could have saved yourself the trouble. [laughs]

[00:06:43] Jaci: Okay, okay.

[00:06:44] Yeah, I understand the argument, but I don't understand it either.

[00:06:48] Right, I'll just briefly summarize what the series is for the listeners who don't know the series.

[00:06:55] But right up front, we're going to have many, many, many spoilers here in this episode.

[00:07:00] So if someone doesn't know the series and wants to read it and have an un-spoilered reading experience,

[00:07:07] then tune out now, you've been warned.

[00:07:10] But today we're just going to talk about everything that happens in all the volumes and not just the first one.

[00:07:17] Exactly.

[00:07:18] The "ACOTAR" book series consists of four novels and a novella, with the first three novels and the novella being about Feyre.

[00:07:29] And the last volume is about her sister Nesta.

[00:07:33] Shelly: [laughs] That rhymed: Sister - Nesta.

[00:07:36] Jaci: Exactly.

[00:07:37] And on this series with these four novels and a novella, this whole, this whole episode is happening now.

[00:07:45] This "ACOTAR" refers to all these volumes, what I just said.

[00:07:49] We're assuming a little bit that the listeners who are listening now know the story because it's an ACOTAR special and it's easier to find your way around.

[00:07:58] I'll summarize very briefly what the series is about, just so that you have a feeling that you're all at the same level again.

[00:08:05] We follow Feyre, who is 19 years old at the beginning of the first novel, in the first three novels and the novella.

[00:08:12] Feyre lives with her two older sisters, Nesta and Elain, in the human realm, which borders the land of Prythian, and in this land live not humans, but the magical fae, or fae.

[00:08:26] Fae are immortal beings who are beautiful and magical and have nothing to do with humans.

[00:08:33] And Feyre kills, more or less by accident, a fae in the form of a wolf and as punishment has to leave her home and her family and move to Prythian, where she lives at the Spring Court.

[00:08:48] With one of the seven High Lords, his name is Tamlin, or Tamlin.

[00:08:53] And Tamlin is the Lord of Spring in this realm.

[00:08:57] There are seven heights in the realm, but that's not relevant to our story right now.

[00:09:03] There are simply seven realms that are in Prythian.

[00:09:05] And the important thing is that humans and fae hate each other because there was a war about 100 billion years ago where humans fought fae.

[00:09:14] And that's why the realm is always totally divided between the realm of the humans and the realm of the Fae, whereby the humans have a deep rejection of the Fae.

[00:09:22] Feyre hates all fae because of this hatred, which she has had naturalized since childhood, and as a result Tamlin does too.

[00:09:32] But spoiler, it's a romantic, it's a novel, so she falls in love with Tamlin in the course of the first volume and he falls in love with her.

[00:09:40] And then the problem is that Prythian has been taken over by a tyrannical ruler, for 50 years or something.

[00:09:50] And her name is Amarantha and she wants Tamlin for herself.

[00:09:54] And Feyre then has to compete in three trials, so to speak, to prove her love for Tamlin and at the same time save the whole Prythian with her 19 years.

[00:10:06] Shelly: Can I interject for a second? - Jaci: Yes.

[00:10:08] Shelly: That totally reminded me of the Hunger Games.

[00:10:11] Jaci: Really? Shelly: Yeah, totally.

[00:10:12] That really got me into the vibe with this worm that she was fighting and this arena and other people are watching.

[00:10:20] Jaci: Okay, yeah, okay. I understand a little bit.

[00:10:23] Shelly: So if you like the Hunger Games, I think that's something for you too.

[00:10:28] Jaci: But then I don't think it's brutal enough.

[00:10:30] It's just a fantasy series and Hunger Games is just sci-fi.

[00:10:34] Shelly: Yeah, right.

[00:10:35] Jaci: But she's fighting for her life and dying every second almost all the time.

[00:10:40] And because she's almost dying all the time, she makes a deal with the Highlord of the Night, Rhysand.

[00:10:49] Let's let that roll off the tongue for a second. Rhysand.

[00:10:51] [Shelly sighs theatrically: "Lovely."]

[00:10:53] Jaci: Who is also one of the seven Highlords, the most powerful one I might add.

[00:10:58] And he helps Feyre defeat Amarantha, but Feyre dies in the process.

[00:11:03] And with the magic of the seven Highlords, she is brought back to life, but as a Fae.

[00:11:09] So she is no longer human.

[00:11:11] And that's where the first volume ends.

[00:11:14] In the second volume, Feyre tries to come to terms with all her dramatic experiences.

[00:11:19] And then she is suddenly engaged to Tamlin, who has just been released after Amarantha.

[00:11:23] And she realizes that her new fae body has, well, she doesn't feel at home anymore.

[00:11:30] She suddenly has powers she doesn't know about.

[00:11:32] And at the same time Tamlin tries to lock her up and protect her completely, because now she has a target on her back.

[00:11:40] Because now she's become the savior of all of Prythian at once.

[00:11:43] And before the wedding can take place, Feyre actually, during the wedding, she walks down the aisle.

[00:11:51] And that's when she has a nervous breakdown.

[00:11:53] And that's when Rhysand, the Highlord of the Night, rescues her from the wedding and brings her to his court.

[00:12:00] Where Feyre then learns to deal with her powers and her life as a fae.

[00:12:06] And returns to Tamlin again and again, but becomes more and more estranged from him.

[00:12:11] And then finally he totally oppresses her and even locks her up in the house.

[00:12:16] Which Rhysand then frees her from.

[00:12:19] And then Feyre's relationship with Tamlin is actually over.

[00:12:23] And she just lives with Rhysand at his court.

[00:12:27] And then there's a friendship between the two of them while they train their skills.

[00:12:32] And they also come to realize that they both have the same goals for the future of Prythian and the human realm and are working towards a common goal, so to speak.

[00:12:41] And in that collaboration, they come to realize, so Feyre realizes how drawn she is to Rhysand.

[00:12:48] And then realizes much too late in the novel that he is her soulmate, her "mate".

[00:12:56] And the second part ends with this new relationship that they enter into and tragic political events in which Feyre's sisters, who are actually both human beings, are suddenly developed again.

[00:13:08] And there is this hostile kingdom of Hybern.

[00:13:13] And they sort of start a fight with Prythian and kidnap Feyre's sisters.

[00:13:18] And then, through magical and very profound events that we won't go into now, they also become Fae, just like the Feyre.

[00:13:26] In the third volume, there is this war that begins in the second.

[00:13:30] In the third volume, it's kind of fought and spoiler: they win. Yay! [both laugh]

[00:13:35] And then the novella is, well, the novella is what Shelly said, which could be an email.

[00:13:42] In the novella you experience a few short weeks after the war, in which the country and our characters recover from the war and have a really nice party.

[00:13:55] And it's really great.

[00:13:57] And I don't know what Shelly has against it.

[00:13:59] But everyone is finally fine.

[00:14:01] Everybody's alive.

[00:14:02] Shelly: I don't mind. I'm just saying ...

[00:14:04] Jaci: It's great.

[00:14:06] Shelly: That could have been an extra chapter.

[00:14:08] Jaci: No.

[00:14:09] Shelly: Okay.

[00:14:10] Jaci: The fourth volume is about Feyre's sister Nesta and how she deals with her traumas about the war and becoming a fae.

[00:14:21] And then, like Feyre in the second part, she goes through a process of self-discovery and things like that.

[00:14:28] So, now we have ... that was relatively short.

[00:14:30] Shelly: Yeah ...

[00:14:31] Well summarized.

[00:14:32] I know my way around. [both laugh]

[00:14:33] Exactly.

[00:14:34] We're going to talk about the characters Feyre and Nesta mainly today, but also Rhysand, Tamlin and some names that will come up are Elain, the third sister, and Cassian and Azriel, Rhysand's two best friends, so to speak.

[00:14:53] And we're going to talk mainly about the two, I'll call them the two female leads that the novels focus on, Feyre and Nesta and their developmental processes. Very briefly about Tamlin and Feyre's toxic relationship and toxic relationships in general, in the YA genre, why they're so popular and what makes them so special.

[00:15:14] And lastly, if we have time, I'd like to talk about how the reading experience is different if you grow up with the characters now, like I did, or if you just read it later.

[00:15:26] Without further ado, let's get started. [both laugh softly]

[00:15:30] Jaci: Let's get to Feyre and her development first. Shelly, how has Feyre changed for you over the course of the novels? So what are some key points where you've noticed a big jump in her development?

[00:15:45] Shelly: Well, in the beginning I saw her as very, very young. So as you just explained before, she was 19 in the first volume, I seem to have missed that.

[00:15:56] I didn't realize that. I actually would have guessed she was younger. But I think that's also because the author wanted to make it clear somehow when she's a human and when she becomes a fae.

[00:16:09] Because as soon as this transformation happened, I perceived her as much more mature. So she was, like, making this deal and coming to the Court of Spring while still Prythian,

[00:16:24] She was very innocent and very helpless and had to put up with it all, more or less.

[00:16:35] But you could tell that she had a pretty strong will on the other side as well and was constantly trying to escape and get back to the mortal realm, to her family.

[00:16:48] You could really see her character traits, the strong ones, that really defined her after the transformation.

[00:16:58] Jaci: You also have to say, at the beginning of the first part, she is the youngest of the three sisters and the first scene is how she

[00:17:10] sitting in the forest, in winter in the forest, waiting for some kind of deer or

[00:17:13] some kind of game goes by, that they have dinner, so to speak. And she is

[00:17:18] the sole provider for the family, her father can't work because of an injury

[00:17:21] can no longer work and she has to take care of everyone and everyone treats her [00:17:25] badly

[00:17:25] badly. And that's the paradox at the beginning, because she seems so strong

[00:17:29] seems so strong and so independent, but somehow totally naive at the beginning and

[00:17:34] very childlike, which I blame on the fact that she grew up too early

[00:17:38] that she lost her mother at an early age and then she was always

[00:17:43] responsible for everyone. But she's still independent, but I understand

[00:17:47] exactly what you're saying, she doesn't seem like she's 19 at the beginning

[00:17:51] be 16, 17 or something like that and I also think that she's already

[00:17:55] even before her transformation, when she falls in love with Tamlin, so to speak

[00:18:01] she's already growing because she's kind of becoming more confident and more of a

[00:18:06] life somehow and it's very organic also their relationship

[00:18:11] with each other somehow, that they're both growing into each other somehow it seems to me,

[00:18:15] that they both kind of overcome their hatred for each other, so

[00:18:18] Enemies-to-Lovers actually, but somehow really well executed.

[00:18:23] Shelly: It was very natural, it wasn't so blatant, that has to happen now

[00:18:28] happen, but it was so fluid - it was so fluid. So I totally took it from them

[00:18:33] in the first novel. "Feyre and Tamlin, that's it."

[00:18:36] Jaci: Yeah, exactly. So you really believe in their love and then I just think

[00:18:41] also the trials of Amarantha, that she's kind of taking the seriousness of life

[00:18:47] somehow, even though she's been through so much before that

[00:18:50] before that, but then the moments when she suddenly realizes, okay, I'm in it

[00:18:54] I was actually fine before and now I have to fight this worm,

[00:18:58] that's killing me, it was actually fine before and this

[00:19:02] despair that she feels, I think you can also understand that and

[00:19:06] all her feelings. I think it's very transparent for the reader and also her

[00:19:11] transformation, this shock that she feels, this ... she's happy on the one hand

[00:19:16] to be alive, but on the other hand she actually hates the fae and

[00:19:19] never really wanted to have anything to do with them in her life and suddenly she is

[00:19:23] Fae herself, so that with her downward spiral this then at the beginning of the

[00:19:29] second part, I think it's quite well executed. So this

[00:19:34] development to "I'm human, I have to live with them, I can deal with them,

[00:19:37] am in love with one, okay", but then again this setback, so to speak, to "now I am

[00:19:43] kind of a fae myself", so I felt that quite well too. - Shelly: It was just like

[00:19:49] this finality or, that hit her so hard that now she's really

[00:19:53] finished with her human life and that she can't go back?

[00:19:57] I think that was also the case ... - Jaci: That she's basically arrived in Prythian for good now and

[00:20:02] can never go back to the human realm. And in the same as in the first

[00:20:07] part, how I perceived this organic relationship between Tamlin and Feyre was kind of

[00:20:11] perceived, then I also perceived the development between Rhysand and Feyre

[00:20:15] felt that the very really just at first she doesn't really like and he

[00:20:21] but still helps her all the time and that even this first friends

[00:20:26] become friends and allies somehow, without there being anything sexual or

[00:20:32] anything romantic. It's a whole deep trust that they build up,

[00:20:36] because they just know, okay, Feyre has suffered under Amarantha and the Rhysand was

[00:20:42] but then he was also her slave for 50 years and he also suffered extremely and that

[00:20:47] connects the two of them and they discover together how strong they are

[00:20:51] and how beautiful the world is, so to speak, and that it's worth it to continue

[00:20:56] and I found the book really great with their

[00:21:00] development, how she then gets out of this hole, but without having to

[00:21:04] that a man saves her in a romantic sense, but that she simply

[00:21:10] friendships, so Rhysand and his group above all, and that she can

[00:21:16] finding herself again, despite her transformation. - Shelly: Yes, especially Rhysand has

[00:21:22] really gave her all the freedom then, so he didn't

[00:21:27] locked her up, didn't underestimate her, trusted her to do a lot on her own and

[00:21:33] that's what she did at that moment, when she left Tamlin,

[00:21:38] who had locked her up like that, who had underpinned her like that, that's what she needed and that's where

[00:21:44] really realized the two of them, they understand each other, they can understand each other

[00:21:49] give each other what they need and you didn't realize that they were actually

[00:21:55] were actually soul mates. Can we go a little bit into this

[00:21:57] "mating bond" a little bit? - Jaci: Gladly, yes, gladly. Exactly, so Sarah J. Maas, the author, is

[00:22:02] known for the fact that she uses this concept of the

[00:22:07] soulmates in each of her series and that's especially true of the Fae, that the idea is,

[00:22:12] that everyone or that many Fae have a counterpart, so to speak, this "mate", where

[00:22:18] souls call each other, I don't know how, or that

[00:22:22] there's just a very deep connection ... - Shelly: An invisible bond, so to speak, which then

[00:22:28] to each other and they can physically feel this bond.

[00:22:32] Jaci: Exactly and in most cases they're great love stories

[00:22:37] like Feyre and Rhysand, where there's just friendship from the beginning and just

[00:22:42] trust and attraction, there's a lot of chemistry between the two of them

[00:22:47] both of them, but then there are also soul connections that don't work,

[00:22:52] where two people are connected who simply don't fit together.

[00:22:56] That was the case with Rhysand's parents, for example, that's a very engaging thing

[00:23:02] actually. But I think that with the two of them, it wasn't the only thing from the beginning

[00:23:07] only thing that connected them, but first of all it was very important for me

[00:23:11] this base, that's always very important to me with novels and with

[00:23:15] romantic relationships, that there is a carpet pad on which something can happen

[00:23:19] can happen and then the feelings come, because this "I see you and I love you

[00:23:23] immediately" I always find it very strange and with these two it was just this

[00:23:29] deep trust first and then it was recognized - or then the Feyre recognized

[00:23:33] "oh, okay, he's my soulmate". - Shelly: Whereas Rhysand already knew that.

[00:23:38] Jaci: Exactly, so Rhysand knew from the moment Feyre became a fae, but he

[00:23:45] just didn't say it, so he was just there for her in a very neutral way and he

[00:23:49] even at the beginning, when Tamlin and Feyre were still together, he had this

[00:23:53] relationship, simply because he wanted the best for Feyre.

[00:23:57] Shelly: It's actually quite similar with Nesta, with the sister of the

[00:24:01] Feyre's sister, she also had very traumatic experiences, because of the

[00:24:07] unwanted transformation into a fae and the resulting change of life, so to speak.

[00:24:12] What was it like with her and Cassian then? It's similar.

[00:24:17] Jaci: Exactly, so I think he suspected it for a while and knew it for a while, but

[00:24:22] he also gave her the freedom to decide for herself, so to speak, because he simply

[00:24:28] also knew that a lot of life decisions had been made for her recently

[00:24:31] have been made for her and what I think is really good about Cassian and

[00:24:36] Nesta and also with Rhysand and Feyre: the men sort of teach the woman

[00:24:41] to live independently and also to defend themselves, because Tamlin, for example

[00:24:47] example, wanted to protect Feyre and locked her up and the other men

[00:24:50] also want to protect their women, but teach them how to defend themselves

[00:24:55] how to defend themselves and protect themselves and Cassian and

[00:24:59] Nesta, I think there's more chemistry right from the start, like Feyre and Rhysand,

[00:25:03] but it's also very slow and shy getting to know each other for

[00:25:11] the Nesta especially this building of trust, which is very important that

[00:25:15] she can also process her trauma and then also, it doesn't work then either

[00:25:21] mainly about the fact that everything is back to normal in her life because

[00:25:25] she met a man and that's what I think Sarah J. Maas does

[00:25:31] actually quite good in this series, that it's not just about love, that it's about

[00:25:35] so much more to life. - Shelly: But it's about self-discovery and that the

[00:25:41] female characters can trust themselves more, find the strength

[00:25:46] find the strength to defend themselves, know who they are then and also as a

[00:25:53] heroines then. - Jaci: Exactly and I just mean the development that the

[00:25:59] characters go through, Feyre as a very innocent, naive, 19-year-old somehow

[00:26:04] and then to this mistress actually, who makes good decisions, but

[00:26:09] still learning and can defend herself and stand up for herself in life and

[00:26:13] let's be honest, Nesta, I hated her in the first books [Shelly: Yeah, so did I.] so

[00:26:17] she was such a prickly person and really horrible to Feyre all the time,

[00:26:23] just put her down, never did anything and in her

[00:26:28] novel, how you get to know her and how she herself realizes what a

[00:26:32] person she is, but also the explanations are given as to why she is like that,

[00:26:36] the way she is. That also totally flashed me and after the last book

[00:26:40] where I thought to myself, okay, she's actually a good character, so she's

[00:26:43] a really strong character, so much more than just this bad person that

[00:26:47] you've always seen in her. - Shelly: I totally agree with you on that, so this book has so

[00:26:51] a lot of insights and I think it's also highly psychological in parts.

[00:26:57] Jaci: Yeah. - Shelly: It's also definitely not a book that

[00:27:02] I would recommend to younger readers right now. It's good that it's the last

[00:27:06] book in the series if you've just read the whole, the whole background just

[00:27:12] already read and understand it better, but yeah, I think it's totally

[00:27:18] well executed, totally beautifully written and I was just so excited about the

[00:27:23] whole time. I think it's definitely my second favorite book because the

[00:27:29] second part is unbeatable, it's just great [Jaci laughs softly] but the fifth one is so great too.

[00:27:34] Jaci: Yes, it's very important that you say that you didn't write the last book for

[00:27:39] younger ones, because that's also the exciting thing about the book series, which is

[00:27:43] just like I said before, it started out as YA, as Young Adult Literature

[00:27:47] and then, because of the last book and the increasing,

[00:27:52] dramatic themes and also the sexual content

[00:27:56] the last book was then labeled as adult. So it is

[00:28:00] actually the first four volumes are seen as YA, but then the last one as

[00:28:04] adult literature and I think that's what you're talking about for this process,

[00:28:11] that we said, that you grow up with the books, because I just think that with

[00:28:15] 16/17 reading and now I'm 24 and I'm completely different in my

[00:28:20] life, I've experienced completely different things and I've always loved the books

[00:28:23] still give me exactly what I want to read, what I have experienced, what

[00:28:28] I can process for myself and which also somehow reflects growing up

[00:28:33] reflected. - Shelly: You still had to wait for some of the books to come out

[00:28:39] come out, right? - Jaci: Yes! - Shelly: I mean, you have to say, the series is not complete, there's still

[00:28:44] one more book, but you don't know when it's coming out.

[00:28:47] Jaci: The author is still writing the last one or the next one

[00:28:51] Volume, I think there are two more books planned. - Shelly: Two more?! [draws in a sharp breath]. -jaci: Just because it's now

[00:28:55] the first three or four books have been about Feyre.

[00:28:58] Now it's about Nesta, they all ask, then the next book is about the Elain, the

[00:29:02] third sister, which everyone, well I'm not thrilled about it because I see her

[00:29:06] as an extremely boring character, but I trust Sarah J. Maas to write

[00:29:11] and Nesta sold us on her as a good character and then we just let her

[00:29:15] process and see her completely differently now, that she can do the same with Elain

[00:29:18] can do that. - Shelly: Yeah, I think so too. Especially because in the last tape

[00:29:23] last volume for now, in the fifth part, that was teased with Elain

[00:29:26] and Azriel, Rhysand and Cassian's third friend. -jaci: Exactly and above all

[00:29:34] because there's also a love triangle brewing again, because Elain is just

[00:29:39] the third sister, is soulmates with Lucien, Tamlin's ex-best friend.

[00:29:46] So they're "mates", the two of them, but Elain hasn't accepted the bond yet and

[00:29:52] she's kind of hooking up with Azriel and that's why it's such an exciting thing

[00:29:55] exciting dynamic, which is good material for another novel

[00:30:00] would make for another novel. But we're curious. - Shelly: Yes, let's come back to the topic for a moment

[00:30:06] toxic relationships in young adult fiction in particular and why it's so

[00:30:13] glamorized and why it works so well in this genre.

[00:30:19] Jaci: Exactly, because so the relationship between Tamlin and Feyre is highly

[00:30:25] toxic, but you only get to that in the second part and I also have to

[00:30:30] confess: I've read the books several times and I've always

[00:30:35] but in the first part it happens to me that I fall in love with Tamlin. So every time

[00:30:38] I fall for him again and I'm like that, but it's great, although then I just

[00:30:43] all the toxic elements when I reread it, but also in the first

[00:30:47] part, of course, and then I'm of the opinion that it works well

[00:30:51] works well because you kind of ignore it at the beginning and then it's

[00:30:55] it's just a nice love story and then when it gets to this obviously

[00:30:59] toxic, then you realize it and you're like "oops" and then of course you find it

[00:31:03] hopefully not great. But what I think makes the trope is that every

[00:31:08] toxic relationship in most novels then finds a happy ending with

[00:31:14] a new person who is much, much better than the old person. That is

[00:31:18] now with Feyre and Tamlin the toxic relationship breaks up

[00:31:23] and Feyre learns to deal with it, so to speak, learns to process it, then finds

[00:31:27] Rhysand and then has a happy ending. But of course that also happens with -

[00:31:30] Colleen Hoover comes to mind, for example, with "It Ends With U", where the

[00:31:35] protagonist is in a toxic relationship and that's already the main part

[00:31:40] of the novel, but it's really just about her coming to terms with it

[00:31:44] coming to terms with it and how she copes with it and that then a happy ending

[00:31:48] with a new person and I think that this, that this is it,

[00:31:54] what makes this trope so popular, this development of the characters themselves afterwards

[00:32:00] and the possibility of another happy ending. - Shelly: So that you're kind of left out because of the

[00:32:05] happy ending, you just accept what came before it. You look past it because it's

[00:32:12] ended well anyway. - Jaci: Yeah, it's like Enemies to Lovers. Nobody reads

[00:32:17] it for the Enemies part, everyone reads it so they can have this now lovers afterward

[00:32:21] and they just accept the Enemies because they know that after that comes the

[00:32:25] love affair. - Shelly: Yeah, I think that's quite

[00:32:29] coherent [laughs]. - Jaci: That was my thought about toxic relationships [laughs]. Yeah, but that's what I think

[00:32:34] has also worked well in the series and yes, we're just

[00:32:38] happy that Feyre has learned and grown. Then we want to

[00:32:42] thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did.

[00:32:47] We hope we've motivated those who haven't read it yet to do so,

[00:32:50] to read "ACOTAR". - Shelly: If you want to do that and read it in German, you can do so in the

[00:32:55] public library. We have both the books and the e-books in

[00:33:00] German. We also have all the other book series by Sarah J. Maas.

[00:33:03] If we've now persuaded everyone to read everything, like the

[00:33:07] dear Shelly has now started Throne of Glass. - Shelly: Yeah. [Jaci laughs]. Am on the second

[00:33:10] book. - Jaci: Then thank you Shelly for talking to me about my love book series

[00:33:13] for talking to me about my love book series. - Shelly: Oh, I'd love to. - Jaci: It's been a pleasure. - Shelly: Any questions, requests,

[00:33:17] suggestions, please send them to post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at or on

[00:33:23] Instagram: stadtbibliothek.innsbruck. Just send a DM, a comment.

[00:33:28] A follow. - Jaci: We look forward to hearing your thoughts on "ACOTAR". - Shelly: And follow us

[00:33:35] on Spotify or other channels where you listen to our podcast. - Jaci: Thank you very much.

[00:33:40] Ciao!

[00:33:42] [Outro music]

[00:34:04] [Pia speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of the

[00:34:10] of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Pia speaks]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulated]

[00:00:07] Boris: Hello and welcome back to the "Short and sweet" preface.

[00:00:27] Today with Liliana Dagostin and my name is Boris Schön.

[00:00:32] Yes, Lili, nice to have you here.

[00:00:35] Lili: Thank you Boris for the invitation.

[00:00:37] Boris: Nice to meet you.

[00:00:38] First of all, I would like you to introduce yourself a little bit.

[00:00:41] Lili: So my name is Liliana Dagostin.

[00:00:45] But I'm called Lili and I'm also happy about this short form, which is very dear to me.

[00:00:50] I work for the Austrian Alpine Association, where I head the Spatial Planning and Nature Conservation Department. For some time now.

[00:00:56] For 12 years. I'm from Innsbruck by choice, originally from South Tyrol,

[00:01:02] but I've been stuck in Innsbruck for a very long time after my studies, here, as they say.

[00:01:09] Boris: You were on stage with us at the book presentation of the illustrated book on the Platzertal.

[00:01:15] As a representative of the Alpine Club for the subsequent discussion.

[00:01:19] I would also like to talk to you today about the Alpine Club.

[00:01:27] What are the tasks and respectively,

[00:01:32] What are your responsibilities within the Alpine Club in particular?

[00:01:36] Lili: Maybe for the listeners,

[00:01:39] very briefly again the reference to it:

[00:01:42] Well, I work for the main association of the Austrian Alpine Club.

[00:01:47] We are based near the Tivoli, in Olympiastrasse, that's where our headquarters are.

[00:01:54] Many of you probably know the Innsbruck section in Meinhardtstraße,

[00:01:59] so that's our largest section in Tyrol.

[00:02:03] The Alpine Club works like this, we have 193 sections spread all over Austria,

[00:02:10] and then there's the headquarters, the central office, and that's where I work.

[00:02:15] There are various departments and central offices in our company,

[00:02:20] and one sub-area, that of alpine spatial planning and nature conservation, for which I am responsible together with my colleagues.

[00:02:29] What are our responsibilities?

[00:02:31] First and foremost, of course, we are responsible for training our officials.

[00:02:36] Every section in the Alpine Club also has a person who is responsible for nature conservation.

[00:02:41] Of course, we try to train them so that they have the right tools in their hands,

[00:02:46] to carry out this important activity in the association.

[00:02:50] Nature conservation is a statutory mandate in the Alpine Club.

[00:02:53] But of course we also have some projects, such as a very nice one,

[00:02:58] where we also work together with the city of Innsbruck, a mountain forest project, a volunteer project,

[00:03:03] so for all people who would like to take a week of their time to work in nature

[00:03:10] and simply dedicate themselves to the mountain forest, the protective forest that we have here in Innsbruck.

[00:03:15] But of course, we also have projects that are aimed at getting involved in the natural environment,

[00:03:21] that we are not alone, that we move in a way that is compatible with nature.

[00:03:24] Which of course, from our point of view, represents the synthesis of all our efforts in the field of Alpine spatial planning,

[00:03:31] is the mountaineering villages project.

[00:03:33] This is not an invention of Lili Dagostin, it was Peter Haßlacher, the [unintelligible] of alpine spatial planning,

[00:03:40] who, together with Roland Kals, considered which places still exist in the Alpine region,

[00:03:46] where you can climb mountains like you used to.

[00:03:48] And for us, this project just fits in wonderfully, really as a continuation of all the efforts we've made.

[00:03:56] They are now also easily accessible for Innsbruck residents.

[00:04:00] We do have some in the Wipptal valley as far as the Gschnitztal valley.

[00:04:05] Of course we have the Sellraintal, we have Vent.

[00:04:08] So there are also some that can be reached from here, but of course they are spread throughout Austria and now throughout the entire Alpine region.

[00:04:16] So it's an original place that has always remained a bit off the beaten track in terms of tourism development,

[00:04:25] where it has always been about higher, faster and further, to a somewhat more tranquil alpine tourism.

[00:04:32] And that is, of course, a matter close to our hearts.

[00:04:35] That, as I said, is what everyone is trying to achieve, the philosophy of the Alpine Association on Alpine spatial development,

[00:04:43] which is also in harmony with nature.

[00:04:47] And the point is the actual mountaineering village.

[00:04:50] These are the topics that we have to accompany in the department and they are the positive topics.

[00:04:59] But of course we also have a lot of other more conflictual issues, such as Alpine spatial planning,

[00:05:07] when it comes to defining ski area boundaries, for example, and questioning the "more and more and bigger and higher and further and further".

[00:05:17] Of course, we're very happy to do that and I think it's also very convincing,

[00:05:23] That is of course also the reason why the Alpine Association is dedicated to nature conservation and how it came to be included in the statutes.

[00:05:31] So it was already about that at a very early stage over 100 years ago,

[00:05:35] whether there wasn't enough development, transportation, skiing, tourism in the first place.

[00:05:45] Boris: Over 100 years ago already.

[00:05:46] Lili: Over 100 years ago. Transportation, tourism and also energy.

[00:05:52] And that's also the reason why I was your guest the other day.

[00:05:57] Boris: In other words, this whole area of spatial planning is, so to speak, how can you imagine it,

[00:06:03] do you have a plan where you look at it, where are the boundaries already set or where would you draw boundaries

[00:06:09] or how can you ... As a layman, I can't really imagine what that means.

[00:06:14] Lili: So of course you always work with a plan and depending on which topic we're tackling,

[00:06:20] we look at which areas are favorable, which are less favorable.

[00:06:26] For the Alpine Association, whose responsibility basically begins above the tree line,

[00:06:32] it is of course always the use of the alpine region and there it is of course about energy development, for example.

[00:06:41] Now, for example, we are concerned with the question of where wind power can be used and where not.

[00:06:49] From our point of view, it is of course the case that in the Alpine region, due to the many problems, we believe that wind power should be used,

[00:06:57] that go hand in hand with this closure or with this use, a very cautious approach should be taken.

[00:07:03] So the attitude should be a very cautious one.

[00:07:06] But we also expect ourselves to be self-critical

[00:07:11] and naturally question our own need for resources,

[00:07:16] which is why it's a complex situation, of course, which then leads to intensive discussions within the association,

[00:07:23] but of course also with interest groups outside the association.

[00:07:28] Boris: I recently stumbled across the fact that we have this concept of freedom of movement.

[00:07:33] It doesn't seem to be something exclusive in Austria, but rather a special situation.

[00:07:38] Not all countries or even all countries in Europe have it.

[00:07:42] Can you explain to us a little bit what the issue is?

[00:07:46] Lili: I'd love to, and thanks for pointing that out, because I'd actually forgotten about that area.

[00:07:51] Although it's actually a big part of what we do. What is this freedom of movement?

[00:07:57] Well, in a nutshell, freedom of movement means that we can move around in certain areas

[00:08:04] for recreational purposes.

[00:08:08] This primarily includes the free choice of route, which means I decide where I go

[00:08:14] and then there is also the right of way, for example if it is for natural history reasons,

[00:08:20] for military or hunting reasons, for example, there is a need to stay on paths,

[00:08:26] but it's really a balancing act that we're always involved in.

[00:08:31] This is also part of the Alpine spatial planning that we mentioned earlier.

[00:08:35] So it's about trying to allow different uses in one and the same space.

[00:08:44] The best example and also the most important example that we have in Austria is the Forest Act.

[00:08:50] At a very early stage, in 1975, at the instigation of Bruno Kreisky, everyone was allowed to use the forest,

[00:08:59] so within the scope of the Forest Act, in short in the forest, the right to move around for recreational purposes was established.

[00:09:06] Many uses are not covered by this, for example horse riding, cycling,

[00:09:11] but ski touring, for example, as well as climbing or, in general, trespassing,

[00:09:19] Everyone is free to do so, free of charge, for recreational purposes.

[00:09:25] And if we want to see it that way, then this common space is accessible to everyone,

[00:09:32] so that they can find strength and

[00:09:34] recreation and that is also the mission of the Alpine Club to stand up for this possibility.

[00:09:39] That starts with nature conservation, with the preservation of landscapes and habitats and then actually changes to the maintenance of paths,

[00:09:48] because we are traveling in an area that does not belong to us alone, where we also want to travel respectfully.

[00:09:53] Boris: We're just heading towards spring and the hiking season is already on the horizon, so to speak.

[00:10:01] Now my question is, if you have the right to move, in the best case you also have self-imposed obligations to protect nature, to treat it respectfully.

[00:10:11] Do you have any tips or tricks on the subject of sustainable hiking or resource-conserving use in the mountains?

[00:10:21] Lili: Very nice question, thank you for that. We actually see it the same way. The first approach to resource-conserving behavior is that in winters like these, when there is little snow or no snow at all,

[00:10:41] not necessarily try to find something where you can still use the winter sports equipment, but simply go up the mountain with mountain boots.

[00:10:53] So that's the first thing. The second question we always have, of course, is mobility.

[00:11:00] Innsbruck is blessed, of course. We have beautiful mountains all around us, which are also easy to reach.

[00:11:06] We have a very well-developed public transport network, but not all of them are in this favorable location.

[00:11:12] But we can still start with mobility, for example, when it comes to using resources sparingly.

[00:11:19] We all know that our personal mobility is the biggest CO2 driver in our behavior when it comes to recreation [unintelligible].

[00:11:27] In other words, we invite you to simply ask yourself the question, not where do I want to go, but where do I want to get to, based on the options I have locally, based on public accessibility.

[00:11:42] What we always invite people to do is to develop an awareness of natural spaces and that we are not alone in natural spaces.

[00:11:50] We have summarized a lot of recommendations for this in a campaign called "Respect on the Mountain", where we also try to educate people and say that wild animals also have their needs.

[00:12:05] We are in an area that we share with wild animals. It's not right that wild animals are pushed into the background.

[00:12:14] But it's also extremely important for us humans that we protect a protective forest, that we recognize that a protective forest on site protects us in our settlements.

[00:12:26] There are also aspects that we try to introduce, always as a recommendation, never as a ban.

[00:12:32] We assume that people will act in a much more self-determined way if they are invited to do so, if they try to understand, instead of being told how to behave.

[00:12:47] Maybe one more point about freedom of movement. I was just talking earlier about the area of the forest, so the scope of the pre-law.

[00:12:55] We naturally assume that we are also allowed to enter alpine wasteland, alpine terrain, which is of course immensely important for the Alpine Association.

[00:13:03] Basically, there are two federal states, Tyrol and Lower Austria, which also have areas relevant for mountaineers that do not have their own law regulating this free accessibility.

[00:13:18] In other federal states, we've had it since the 1920s.

[00:13:23] Boris: Now I have a small supplementary question.

[00:13:26] When you say that it should be resource-saving how you get up the mountain in the first place, then I have the example from my circle of friends again and again that people say, I bought an e-bike, I can easily cover 50, 70 kilometers until I get to where I want to go up the mountain.

[00:13:46] Then, of course, I don't stop at the bottom, so to speak, but ride up the mountain as far as I can on the e-bike.

[00:13:53] Then I hike to the summit or similar scenarios, also in the sense of this recreational sport.

[00:13:59] Just like in Tyrol, where you have to get up the mountain quickly at the end of the day or on Saturday morning before you go to family dinner.

[00:14:08] The "must" is not meant to be negative, but ... It's a great thing.

[00:14:13] Now my question is that the number of cyclists on the mountain is simply increasing.

[00:14:19] How do you see that on the part of the Alpine Club? Or are there regulations or should there be more?

[00:14:28] Is voluntary behavior the right way to go?

[00:14:32] Lili: What you're talking about, Boris, is really that aspect, that area in which the Alpine Association, as a large alpine association with a mountain sports mandate and a nature conservation mandate, of course also a youth and hut mandate, but a mountain sports and nature conservation mandate, realizes that it has two souls in its breast.

[00:14:52] That starts with mountain biking and ends with e-mountain biking. Two or three years ago, there was a lengthy internal dispute within the association, which ultimately led to us saying in the Alpine Club that we are still an association that stands up for mountain sports that involve movement under one's own power.

[00:15:17] That means we say yes to mountain biking, but we don't say a complete yes to e-mountain biking, because we say the movement should be under your own power.

[00:15:28] What we do is that people who want to learn how to use a mountain bike properly can come to us and we don't exclude those who come with an e-mountain bike, because that also needs to be learned, even if it's about damage to the trail, for example, even if it's about impairments, we don't exclude them, but we don't actively promote them.

[00:15:54] That was the Solomonic solution we found, but basically the Alpine Club stands for movement under its own steam.

[00:16:02] And it doesn't really matter to us whether a motor-assisted aid has a combustion engine or an electric motor.

[00:16:12] Boris: Yes, Lili, thank you very much for this, in my opinion, very exciting insight into your field of work, but also the activities of the Alpine Club.

[00:16:20] And I think it's a very complex and multi-layered subject that you have to deal with.

[00:16:27] Lili: We rarely get bored.

[00:16:29] Boris: [laughs] I think so, yes.

[00:16:30] Finally, as always with our guests, I would also ask you to give a literature tip for our listeners.

[00:16:37] Lili: I would love to.

[00:16:38] I would actually almost like to share a literature tip for the listeners of this podcast on my own behalf.

[00:16:48] We recently presented a book, an illustrated book about the Platzertal, which was of course also enriched with content, i.e. technical but very personal descriptions by nature photographer Sebastian Frölich.

[00:17:07] And this illustrated book is intended to show what a treasure the Platzertal represents, for those who don't know, the Platzertal could disappear behind a dam that Tyrolean hydropower is planning to build in order to generate electricity from renewable energy, i.e. to build a hydropower plant there.

[00:17:28] So the Platzertal could face a similar fate to the Längental, which is currently being built behind the Kühtai, being redesigned.

[00:17:38] And then, of course, I have a personal book that is very close to my heart, which I also like to give away.

[00:17:45] I really like giving books as gifts, by the way, but one that I really like to give away and that I also know is here in the city library, not at the moment,

[00:17:53] It's been lent out. It's a book by Marco Balzano, an Italian writer who actually writes about South Tyrol, although he's not a South Tyrolean, but I've rarely read such a sensitive book about the events in South Tyrol, which have also shaped the South Tyrolean population.

[00:18:14] That is, "Io resto qui" in Italian. So "I'm staying here". I can only highly, highly recommend reading it.

[00:18:25] Boris: Thank you very much for these two tips and thank you for the interview.

[00:18:31] Lili: Thank you for the invitation.

[00:18:33] [Outro music]

[00:18:56] [Boris speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Boris speaks]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulated]

[00:00:06] [Intro music] Christina: Hello and welcome back to the preface, the podcast of the city library

[00:00:26] Innsbruck. My name is Christina -

[00:00:28] Pia: And I'm Pia -

[00:00:29] Christina: and we're delighted to finally be back and start the podcast year with the podcasts you love so much

[00:00:38] stories of origin.

[00:00:41] Pia and I have each researched the genesis of a famous novel or work

[00:00:48] and surprise each other with it.

[00:00:50] And at the end you decide which origin story was more exciting.

[00:00:55] You can then simply vote on Instagram or write us an email at post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at.

[00:01:05] It has to be said in advance that a lot has happened in the foreword.

[00:01:10] We have gained two new colleagues who are now permanently on the podcast.

[00:01:16] These are Shelly and Jaci, who spill the tea once a month in their teatime

[00:01:21] and keep you up to date on all literary developments from the World Wide Web.

[00:01:27] There have also been and will be many great guests again this year, who will be presenting us in the "Kurz

[00:01:34] and Painless with ..." by our colleague and event organizer Boris.

[00:01:41] This year's guests have already been the feminist artist Katharina Cibulka, known from the "Solange" project,

[00:01:47] Paul Scheibelhofer from the University of Innsbruck, who specializes in gender and masculinity research

[00:01:53], Eva Biringer, who published her super exciting book "Unversehrt: Frauen und Schmerz"

[00:01:59] in the city library and which is currently on everyone's lips, the book,

[00:02:05] and the topic, as well as the popular FM4 presenter Christian Fuchs,

[00:02:10] who I'm sure many of you know from the cult show "House of Pain".

[00:02:14] You can hear that we've got a lot going on in the foreword.

[00:02:17] Pia and I have also come up with something special this year.

[00:02:21] In addition to the popular origin stories, we're going back to our roots and talking about - sure - novels.

[00:02:28] But not just any novels.

[00:02:30] You can look forward to book reviews by young Austrian authors.

[00:02:34] Soon our reviews of the humorous novel will go on air

[00:02:38] "Nincshof" by Johanna Sebauer (keyword: Irrziegen),

[00:02:43] and the wonderfully poisonous "Arsenic" by Maria Hofer.

[00:02:47] So let yourself be surprised and inspired.

[00:02:51] Okay, here we go Pia with the origin stories.

[00:02:55] Who's starting today?

[00:02:58] Pia: I don't know.

[00:02:59] I can't remember who started it last time and who finished it last time.

[00:03:04] Christina: What do we do now?

[00:03:06] Pia: Rock, paper, scissors?

[00:03:07] Christina: Okay, one or three?

[00:03:10] Pia: One, right?

[00:03:12] Christina: Okay. [both laugh]

[00:03:13] Wait.

[00:03:15] I have to think for a moment.

[00:03:16] [in unison] Rock, paper, scissors!

[00:03:19] Christina: Dang it. [both laugh] - Pia: So did I win now that I do at the end or at the beginning?

[00:03:23] That's the question now, isn't it?

[00:03:25] Christina: We haven't decided that yet.

[00:03:26] Pia: I'll start.

[00:03:27] Christina: Okay, so for all of you who haven't, you listeners out there haven't seen it now.

[00:03:32] You haven't seen it now.

[00:03:33] I had a stone, Pia had a piece of paper and hit me up with it.

[00:03:38] Pia: As a librarian, that has to be.

[00:03:41] Christina: What origin story did you bring us?

[00:03:43] Pia: I'm not telling that yet. [laughs]

[00:03:45] I'll just start telling you.

[00:03:47] I cheated a bit, but we'll find out later.

[00:03:53] So: Our car was born in Scotland on May 9, 1860.

[00:03:58] He grew up there as the ninth of ten children.

[00:04:02] He was a small child, but attracted attention at a young age with his storytelling talent

[00:04:08] at a young age.

[00:04:09] I hope we don't have the same one. [laughs]

[00:04:10] Christina: No, I've already done the math.

[00:04:12] Pia: Okay.

[00:04:13] Christina: Because the novel I'm talking about was published a few years later.

[00:04:17] Pia: Okay, now I'm curious.

[00:04:19] When my car was six years old, did his older brother David die?

[00:04:23] No, right?

[00:04:24] Christina: I don't know, I haven't done that much research into the story, into the family.

[00:04:28] Pia: Oh God. [both laugh]

[00:04:29] I hope we don't have the same thing.

[00:04:31] Christina: We're really curious.

[00:04:33] Pia: I have no idea what you have.

[00:04:35] Christina: We can't have the same one.

[00:04:36] We've already done that today ...

[00:04:37] Pia: Okay, yes then.

[00:04:38] When he was six years old, his older brother David died -

[00:04:41] -that was his mother's favorite -

[00:04:43] in a skating accident the day before his 14th birthday.

[00:04:46] The mother was devastated, of course, and the author -

[00:04:51] our author - tried to take David's place, even wearing his clothes

[00:04:56] and whistled the same way he did.

[00:04:59] Once entered the room and heard her say, "Is that you?"

[00:05:04] And then in 1896 he wrote in his mother's biography:

[00:05:09] "I thought she was talking to the dead boy and I said with a small, lonely

[00:05:13] voice, no, it's not him, it's just me."

[00:05:15] That was a powerful experience for him. Barrie's mother ...

[00:05:20] [horrified] Now I've given it away. [Christina laughs]

[00:05:22] Christina: I still don't know who it is.

[00:05:24] Pia: You still don't know who it is?

[00:05:26] Christina: [confused]: Perry?

[00:05:27] Pia: Shh! [Christina laughs]

[00:05:28] His mother found comfort in the idea that her dead son would remain a boy forever

[00:05:32] who could never grow up and leave her.

[00:05:35] And that's already a hint of where it's going for those who already know the story

[00:05:39] know the story.

[00:05:40] Christina: Ahhh, now I know.

[00:05:41] Pia: Yes.

[00:05:42] The author and his mother entertained each other with stories from their childhood

[00:05:46] and books like Robinson Crusoe.

[00:05:48] Christina: That explains so much of what's in this story.

[00:05:52] Pia: [laughs] Yeah.

[00:05:53] He was an avid reader and enjoyed so-called Penny Dreadfuls.

[00:05:57] If you don't know, it's the British equivalent of the dime novel, basically.

[00:06:02] Although the penny dreadful is a bit more generic.

[00:06:05] Penny Dreadfuls always have a gruesome or terrifying character.

[00:06:09] So in German you would say "Gruselheftchen" or something like that.

[00:06:13] He graduated from Edinburgh University with a degree in literature and started out as a journalist

[00:06:19] and eventually wrote his first story about his mother's childhood

[00:06:24] in a newspaper.

[00:06:25] And then he was allowed to make a series out of it.

[00:06:28] In other words, he had made the leap into writing.

[00:06:31] And then he also started writing plays.

[00:06:33] And with that we fly to the second star on the right and then straight on to the morning, because the

[00:06:38] person I'm talking about is JM Barrie and his character Peter Pan.

[00:06:43] The character of Peter Pan first appears in the novel "The Little White Bird"

[00:06:48] from the year 1902.

[00:06:50] That's actually an adult novel, I found out.

[00:06:53] That means it wasn't actually intended for children, but for adults.

[00:06:57] It's about the lonely Captain W., who makes friends with the boy David and

[00:07:02] experiences and invents imaginative adventures with him in Kensington Park.

[00:07:06] And one of these stories is about Peter Pan.

[00:07:10] That means that the Peter Pan story was a story within a story, i.e. a part

[00:07:15] of a frame narrative.

[00:07:16] You might recognize this from famous works like "One Thousand and One Nights", where the

[00:07:20] Scheherazade has to tell a fairy tale every night in order to survive.

[00:07:24] And here is the frame story of Captain W.

[00:07:27] And this story is then interrupted again and again with such small, imaginative stories

[00:07:30] interrupted.

[00:07:31] The chapters in which Peter Pan appears were later published as a separate children's book

[00:07:35] published as a separate children's book called "Peter Pan in Kensington Gardens".

[00:07:39] And that's the book that we have in the library right now [laughs] and so I came across this

[00:07:44] story.

[00:07:45] Christina: Then you showed me the comic. [laughs softly]

[00:07:47] Pia: Yes, exactly.

[00:07:48] Christina: Because we also have it as a graphic novel.

[00:07:49] Pia: Exactly.

[00:07:50] We got it new and that's why I thought it would be - Christina: [clicks her tongue] Oh, I could have done that

[00:07:55] I really could have thought of that.

[00:07:56] We've been shaking the whole time that we have the same story because

[00:08:01] I also have a classic.

[00:08:02] But it's not like ...

[00:08:03] Pia: And then also from the same time.

[00:08:05] Christina: Yes, as I said, in my opinion it was ... not quite the same time.

[00:08:09] Pia: Okay.

[00:08:10] Yes, but that's why I came up with it.

[00:08:11] That's why I cheated a bit, because it's better known as a children's novel, but

[00:08:16] It started out as an adult novel.

[00:08:18] The friendship between the characters in the book, between Captain W. and the young

[00:08:22] David, is also based on real events.

[00:08:25] Barrie befriended the Llewelyn Davies family, consisting of the parents Arthur and Sylvia.

[00:08:30] Sylvia, by the way, was Daphne du Maurier's aunt.

[00:08:33] Christina: [draws in a sharp breath] Cool, I love Daphne du Maurier!

[00:08:36] Pia: Right, you might know her, that's the woman who wrote "Rebecca."

[00:08:40] Christina: A good novel like that still reads today as if it were written yesterday.

[00:08:44] Incredibly great.

[00:08:45] Pia: Right, that means they were related to them and they had five sons.

[00:08:49] And together with these five sons, Barrie invented the stories.

[00:08:52] Christina: Ah.

[00:08:53] Pia: And they also served as inspiration for Peter Pan, including the lost boys.

[00:09:00] Christina: But also something like ... reminds me a lot now of "Alice in Wonderland" and the Lewis

[00:09:04] Carroll, who also sat in the boat there and told the stories with the children

[00:09:08] with the children.

[00:09:09] Exactly, there's Alice Liddell, I think her name was.

[00:09:12] And that was also the inspiration for it.

[00:09:15] Exactly.

[00:09:16] But back to Peter Pan.

[00:09:18] The character of Peter Pan was invented to entertain two of the boys, George and Jack.

[00:09:23] Barrie told them, to amuse them, that their little brother Peter could fly.

[00:09:28] He claimed babies were birds before they were born and parents would put bars on

[00:09:33] the windows of the children's rooms to keep them from flying away.

[00:09:38] So also very unusual. [both laugh skeptically]

[00:09:40] And from this idea came the story of a little boy who actually flew away

[00:09:44] flew away.

[00:09:45] And that's how Peter Pan came about.

[00:09:47] Christina: So today, when I hear the origin story, I would rather think of the beginning of a true story

[00:09:52] Crime documentary than...

[00:09:54] Pia: Or a horror movie. [laughs]

[00:09:55] Christina: Yes, a bit, isn't it?

[00:09:56] Pia: Sounds like that too.

[00:09:57] Christina: But what does it do?

[00:09:58] You can't tell a child that his brother can fly.

[00:10:02] What if they test it?

[00:10:04] Pia: Then the story would end differently. [laughs]

[00:10:07] The family obviously had bars on the windows, but wow.

[00:10:11] Pia: Could end badly, yes.

[00:10:13] Christina: Well, I think Peter Pan himself is really nice. [both laugh]

[00:10:16] Pia: Barrie also supported this family, the Llewelyn Davies family financially and he

[00:10:23] and then eventually took care of the boys [Christina, incredulous: What?] and became their guardian after the parents

[00:10:28] both passed away.

[00:10:29] Christina: Okay, was he somehow related to them?

[00:10:32] Pia: No, not at all.

[00:10:33] The parents both died, I think first the father and then the mother

[00:10:36] and then he took care of the boys.

[00:10:38] And this relationship with the family and the children was the inspiration for this

[00:10:44] novel "Little White Bird".

[00:10:47] But then Peter Pan outgrew the novel.

[00:10:50] Barrie's best-known work was the play "Peter Pan or the Boy Who Wouldn't Grow Up"

[00:10:56] Pan or the Boy Who Wouldn't Grow Up").

[00:10:58] from 1904 and was later adapted into a novel in 1911, "Peter Pan

[00:11:06] and Wendy" (Peter Pan and Wendy).

[00:11:08] And these are the works that are still known today.

[00:11:13] This is the story of Wendy Darling and her brothers, the story of Peter Pan, a boy

[00:11:16] who never grows up, takes them to magical Neverland and there they have all kinds of adventures

[00:11:21] adventures with the lost boys, fight against the evil Captain Hook, meet

[00:11:27] fairies, mermaids and pirates.

[00:11:29] What's also interesting is the copyright of the story.

[00:11:33] J.M.

[00:11:34] Barrie has the copyright to his Peter Pan works, namely the children's hospital

[00:11:39] Great Ormond Street Hospital.

[00:11:41] However, Peter Pan entered the public domain in Europe in 2007.

[00:11:46] But in the UK there is the Copyright Designs and Patterns Act and the

[00:11:52] ensures that the hospital still benefits from the fact that J.M.

[00:11:58] Barrie gave them that copyright.

[00:12:01] Christina: Sounds very fair to me.

[00:12:03] Pia: Right.

[00:12:04] And the library also has several Peter Pan stories, the children's versions of course

[00:12:08] as a book, as an e-book and as a Tonie, but also now the original story in the

[00:12:14] "Peter Pan in Kensington Gardens" comics.

[00:12:16] This is Peter Pan's first literary appearance and it's available from us at

[00:12:20] the adult section in the classics [editor's note: in the graphic novels]

[00:12:22] And if you like it scary, we've already mentioned a bit,

[00:12:27] Peter Pan can also be scary.

[00:12:29] And we have the "Chronicles of Peter Pan" by Christina Henry, [00:12:29] "Nightmare in Neverland".

[00:12:36] That's in the fantasy section for adults, but it's also available as an e-book or

[00:12:40] in the e-audiobooks section.

[00:12:41] It's a retelling of Peter Pan, where he's the villain.

[00:12:45] It's a mix of horror and fantasy.

[00:12:47] Exactly.

[00:12:48] That's it from me and the story of how Peter Pan came to be. [Christina applauds in the background. Christina: Applause, applause!]

[00:12:54] Christina: Yes, totally exciting.

[00:12:56] Pia: I found it interesting because certain things I knew.

[00:13:01] The copyright thing, for example, but other things like...

[00:13:04] Christina: But I think - sorry - that a lot of people just don't know about copyright -

[00:13:08] I didn't know that, and I can also imagine that our listeners do,

[00:13:10] that this is also new to them.

[00:13:12] I think it's really - well, it's now the case that classics "expire" at some point and you can use them too

[00:13:16] can be used. You can see that, for example, each of you can now tell stories about

[00:13:21] Sherlock Holmes and then publish them and monetize them. So not fan fiction,

[00:13:26] but make real money with it. But I just think it's good that the profits from the story

[00:13:34] still benefit this hospital. Pia: Yes, I think that too. I think it's great. And I think

[00:13:39] it's great that the UK goes there and says, okay, we'll do without that, you can

[00:13:42] use it however you want, so to speak. I think it's great. Yeah, exactly, that was my

[00:13:48] story. I hope you guys enjoyed it. It was a little bit interesting. Maybe we learned

[00:13:51] learned something new. Christina. Now I'm curious to see what comes from you. - Christina: [clears throat] I went to a lot of trouble

[00:14:01] a lot of effort because it's a competition to make it very exciting.

[00:14:06] Pia: [laughs] Oh dear, what's next. - Christina: Yeah, so sit down comfortably, sit back, grab a cup of tea,

[00:14:15] a coffee or close your eyes and let yourself be carried away to the birth of a myth.

[00:14:22] Because speaking of scary, I'd rather not go overboard with the suspense.

[00:14:29] It's about the birth of Bram Stoker's "Dracula". - Pia: Ah, okay, hence the creepiness. [laughs] - Christina: But also

[00:14:38] 19th century, we were already close to each other. Imagine the following scene:

[00:14:44] It's a stormy night in London sometime in 1890. Bram Stoker, an Irish theater manager

[00:14:53] and occasional author, lies in his bed, his stomach heavy from a late dinner.

[00:15:00] But then it happens. A dream grabs him with a cold hand. [both laugh]

[00:15:04] Pia has never laughed at me in all the years I've known her. [Pia continues laughing in the background. "Sorry."]

[00:15:11] Okay, you enjoy your tea, ignore Pia, lean back.

[00:15:18] Bram Stoker is gripped by the dream with the cold hand. In front of him stands a pale nobleman with

[00:15:25] fiery gaze - that is, in the dream - and around him three ghostly women with pointed teeth.

[00:15:31] They bend over the young man. But the nobleman stops them with a single sentence: [in an ominous voice]

[00:15:36] "This man is mine." Stoker jolts up, his heart racing, his mind wide awake. Still in

[00:15:43] the same night, he makes a note of the scene in his notebook. What he doesn't know at the time,

[00:15:48] this is the first spark of a novel that will change the horror genre forever.

[00:15:53] Dracula is born. Chapter One: "Research in the Shadows."

[00:15:58] But Stoker doesn't just write away. He is a man of research. And this leads

[00:16:06] him to the small English harbor town of Whitby in the summer of 1890. There, in an inconspicuous

[00:16:12] library, he comes across a book on the history of Wallachia. One name catches his eye:

[00:16:18] Draculea. This is the nickname of a Wallachian prince from the 15th century. Vlad III,

[00:16:25] also known as Vlad the Impaler. A man who impaled his enemies and killed thousands of people

[00:16:30] slaughtered in bloody wars. In a footnote, Stoker reads that Draculea in the old

[00:16:36] language not only means "son of the dragon", but is derived from the Romanian word "Drac",

[00:16:44] also "devil". A smile crosses Bram Stoker's face. His vampire has just

[00:16:51] found his name. - Pia: You make it very scenic. So you can visualize it. [both laugh softly]

[00:16:57] Christina: But it's not just Vlad's story that flows into the novel. Stoker dives deep into the

[00:17:06] European folklore, reads about undead creatures that roam the night, about garlic

[00:17:12] crosses and stakes in the heart. He uses the works of the Scottish writer Emily Gerard,

[00:17:17] who documented Transylvanian legends. Transylvania is also known as Transylvania

[00:17:24] and is a region in the center of Romania. During Stoker's research, one name comes to mind

[00:17:29] particularly caught his eye: Nosferatu, an old term for a vampire. At least that's what the peasants believe.

[00:17:37] Bram Stoker combines fact with fantasy, historical horror figures with dark

[00:17:42] myths. His Dracula is no mere adaptation of the story of Vlad III,

[00:17:47] but a terrifying figure all of his own. An undead count with hypnotic power,

[00:17:53] who lives in a remote castle and travels to the metropolis of London to feast on the blood of

[00:17:58] the blood of the living. Chapter two: "The novel takes shape.": [Pia laughs softly]

[00:18:02] It takes seven years for Stoker to complete his novel. He writes between

[00:18:10] his duties as a theater manager, often at night, sometimes until creation.

[00:18:15] "Dracula" is unusually structured, not a simple narrative but a collection

[00:18:20] of diary entries, letters and newspaper articles. This form gives the novel a documentary

[00:18:26] character. As if the horror had really happened.

[00:18:30] Pia: Isn't there, isn't there this every year, that you can read along with the book?

[00:18:34] Christina: Isn't there?

[00:18:35] Pia: Yeah, I think there's online or maybe they did that for the anniversary. I don't know

[00:18:38] not if it was last year or the year before last, but I read something,

[00:18:41] that you can actually read these diary entries and the letters that are inside on the days

[00:18:46] on the days that it happened in the year and then you get to the end of the book, so to speak.

[00:18:50] Christina: Wow, that's actually a really nice idea.

[00:18:52] Pia: But just, I don't know if they do that every year or if that was just a promotion.

[00:18:56] Christina: Finally, in May 1897, the world holds "Dracula" in its hands. The reactions? Split.

[00:19:04] Some praise the novel for its dense atmosphere, others criticize it for being too gruesome. But

[00:19:10] what Stoker doesn't realize is that his creation is immortal. - Pia: [laughs] Oh my God, ba-dum-ts!

[00:19:18] Christina: Chapter three: "The Legacy of a Bloodsucker" [Pia laughs softly]

[00:19:23] Stoker himself will not live to see great fame. But his vampire will live on.

[00:19:28] "Dracula" was first brought to the screen in 1922 with Nosferatu, but without Stoker's name.

[00:19:34] His widow Florence takes him to court and has almost all copies of the film destroyed.

[00:19:39] But the myth can no longer be erased.

[00:19:42] Dracula rises again in 1931. This time played by Bela Lugosi in the legendary Universal film adaptation.

[00:19:51] The black cloak, the hypnotic gaze: Lugosi shapes the image of the vampire for generations.

[00:19:57] Later, in 1958, Christopher Lee would give the bloodsucker a menacingly erotic touch

[00:20:04] and finally Dracula becomes an icon of pop culture.

[00:20:07] Today, more than 125 years after its first publication, Dracula is omnipresent. Countless adaptations,

[00:20:15] films, series and books are based on the work. Bram Stoker's vampire is the foundation

[00:20:20] from which every modern vampire image rests. And so Count Dracula remains among us, in the shadows

[00:20:29] of our nightmares, in the dark corners of our imagination or glittering in the sun [Pia laughs] in Robert

[00:20:36] Pattinson memes on the internet. Bram Stoker didn't just create a novel, he created a legend and

[00:20:43] maybe, just maybe, when night falls and the wind whistles around the houses,

[00:20:47] then you hear a soft scratching at your windows and you wonder: Is that Edward

[00:20:54] Cullen trying to watch me sleep again? [both laugh] No kidding, Dracula is, haha, unkillable.

[00:21:04] There's also the one that was released in Austrian theaters in January, a film by

[00:21:09] Director Robert Eggers, "Nosferatu: The Undead" and I ... it's already in theaters and I have

[00:21:19] now I've read that there's going to be another Dracula movie in 2025. - Pia: Again? - Christina: If it's true,

[00:21:25] "Dracula: A Love Tale" by Luc Besson. Pia: Exactly. Yes, that's my story. What did you think

[00:21:35] you like my story? Pia? - Pia: As I said, very scenic, so the division into chapters,

[00:21:40] I have nothing to say about that. [both laugh] Yes, I know a bit more about Dracula from my studies, because I

[00:21:47] I had a seminar on horror literature, so I already know most of it in that case,

[00:21:54] but there are certainly a few interesting things in there, even for people who may never have read it before

[00:21:58] never read it before. It's a bit of a thicker novel, people might not even be

[00:22:03] used to it or don't think it's that thick, especially for such a classic,

[00:22:07] an old one like that, where you think, ah, it's just the same story anyway, it's short

[00:22:11] told once, but it's ... just, and it also has this funny - funny? - also has this interesting

[00:22:16] form of diary entries. I actually found it quite easy to read back in my

[00:22:21] study, I have to say, because you're always moving from entry to entry,

[00:22:25] that's read once. - Christina: I somehow ... i really like horror novels and

[00:22:31] when I read "Dracula" for the first time, I picked it up and thought,

[00:22:35] it's just written in a normal prose form and then I was horrified when I realized

[00:22:40] I realized that these are diary entries, because I don't like that kind of thing at all, epistolary novels,

[00:22:44] ramen stories. - Pia: You see, that's what I found exciting! - Christina: I think it's terrible,

[00:22:48] because I always, the chapters are quite short and then, well, I basically like that

[00:22:53] about it, then it jumps like that and then you're in a different character every time. - Pia: That's what makes it

[00:22:58] exciting! [Christina: Yes, that's right, I don't like it. I prefer to stay with one person. I like the change of perspective

[00:23:03] zero. That's probably why I don't like fantasy novels

[00:23:07] Mag. - Pia: Yeah, George R.R. Martin is probably not for you then. [both laugh] - Christina: Because every time

[00:23:12] inside, you go to someone else and somehow you have no idea. Which I for example

[00:23:17] didn't know is that he's so much also from one of the Scottish writers,

[00:23:24] Emily Gerard, was so inspired by it. I didn't realize it, I read the

[00:23:29] whole story with the Vlad. III as well. I think of all the origin stories

[00:23:33] "Dracula" is also one of the better known ones. When you know, oh, there was once a prince

[00:23:37] and somehow you have that on your screen a little bit. But that's what

[00:23:41] I didn't know that, for example, and also that folklore is perhaps quite interesting,

[00:23:45] that it's Romanian folklore and that the vampire figure is such an old figure. And by the way:

[00:23:52] Not that I'm forgetting: The novel "Carmilla" - Pia: [interjects] Sheridan La Fenu, I think,

[00:23:57] I'm not sure how to pronounce it now. - Christina: [laughs] Thank you Pia. It was published before "Dracula",

[00:24:02] even. Right? That was before that. - Pia: Exactly and then there was another very, very, very earlier one, but

[00:24:09] a short story, I think, "The Vampyr" but written with a "y". The Vampyr, I don't know. [laughs] That

[00:24:16] was again, I think, the first one in English. That's actually an interesting one too

[00:24:21] origin story. That might be something for another time. I won't say anymore. [both laugh]

[00:24:25] Christina: Right. Then I know who's doing the next vampire origin story. And then "Twilight." [both laugh]

[00:24:30] Yeah, so you know, you get to vote on which of the two stories you liked better.

[00:24:37] Yes, my wonderfully scenic story, divided into chapters and inviting you to tea

[00:24:45] Story without anything subjective - Pia: A cheek! - Christina: Or Pia's story. [both laugh] - Pia: That works

[00:24:53] not at all. - Christina: So let yourselves be completely uninfluenced. Vote for it. You can do that on Instagram, on

[00:24:59] stadtbibliothek.innsbruck or by email to post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at. And if

[00:25:10] you like what you hear, then don't forget to subscribe to us. That way you can always keep an eye on us,

[00:25:14] when a new episode is released and you also support independent and ad-free content. We

[00:25:21] look forward to hearing from you. We're very excited and will show you the result in the next,

[00:25:26] our next episode - that is - when we discuss "Nincshof", right, Pia? - Pia: Yes,

[00:25:32] exactly. I've already read it. I'm not saying anything yet. - Christina: Errant goats! [both laugh] - Pia: Exactly. - Christina: I can do one thing ... a spoiler:

[00:25:39] Did you like the novel? - Pia: Yes. - Christina: Yeah, me too. [laughs] It's fantastic. So look forward to it. We're looking forward

[00:25:46] to hear from you guys. I already said that and see you soon. - Pia: Bye. [Outro music]

[00:25:49] [Pia speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the city library

[00:26:18] Innsbruck and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck.

[00:26:22] [Pia speaks]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulated]

[00:00:07] [Intro music] Boris: Hello and welcome to the foreword "Kurz und Schmerzlos" today with Iris Wolff

[00:00:28] and my name is Boris Schön. Dear Ms. Wolf, nice to have you here.

[00:00:33] Iris Wolff: Thank you.

[00:00:34] Boris: First of all, I would like you to introduce yourself briefly.

[00:00:38] Iris Wolff: I haven't been asked that for a long time. It reminds you of those rounds where you then

[00:00:45] sitting there and introducing yourself one after the other. So maybe: Birthday 1977, in Sibiu

[00:00:53] and then came to Germany with my family in 1985. I have a degree in humanities

[00:01:01] studies with different subjects behind me, never had a plan what to do with it.

[00:01:06] I then became a literary mediator at the German Literature Archive in Marbach and then went into

[00:01:13] writing and today I'm here with "Lichtungen". That's my fifth novel.

[00:01:18] Boris: Yes, thank you very much. Studying the humanities and not knowing where you're going with it,

[00:01:23] that's a bit of a classic of the humanities, but I don't think they were invented,

[00:01:28] so that you know where you're going.

[00:01:30] Iris Wolff: It always seemed strange to me to take a path that is so predictable, to take something safe,

[00:01:37] because I don't think you know where the safety lies. And the other thing is, you should be careful with your

[00:01:44] talents, something as important as your job, because you just spend so much time doing it.

[00:01:49] Boris: I think so too. Things that you enjoy are important, what you fill your professional life with.

[00:01:55] Like you said, you're on the road with your new novel "Lichtungen", or your current novel,

[00:02:00] You have to say, it's about a year old now, you're a guest at the city library today.

[00:02:05] And you've already hinted at it a bit, but the question is, how did you become a writer?

[00:02:13] Iris Wolff: There was a very decisive trip to Transylvania when I was in my mid-20s.

[00:02:19] And I understood for the first time that it had a lot to do with my identity or character or origin.

[00:02:28] I locked it away for a long time and then I thought, because I'm such a novel reader,

[00:02:33] it would be a good idea to process it in a novel.

[00:02:38] So why did the German minority emigrate from Transylvania?

[00:02:42] What did it do to my family? What did it do to me as a child to leave a familiar environment?

[00:02:49] And this novel, that was such an experiment.

[00:02:53] And it took me six years to finish it, then it took me another year,

[00:02:58] until I found a publisher, Otto-Müller-Verlag in Salzburg.

[00:03:01] And when you've written a novel, you think, well, that worked, I'll do the next one.

[00:03:06] And so it went on and on.

[00:03:09] I'm really glad that life has led me to this place, because I have the impression that so much comes together,

[00:03:15] what I like and what I can do and what challenges me.

[00:03:19] Boris: A special feature of your last novel is that it is told backwards.

[00:03:25] Now I would be interested to know what the challenges were for you in writing it?

[00:03:32] Iris Wolff: I would never do it again.

[00:03:34] I have to say that very clearly.

[00:03:36] It was such a challenge to get the narrative right the way I imagined it in my head.

[00:03:42] It's always a huge difference how things appear in our head, this world, three-dimensional in a life,

[00:03:48] how we move, the narrative direction backwards.

[00:03:51] That was so clear to me.

[00:03:53] But putting it into language, so to speak, is always the challenge.

[00:03:57] And also so that readers can get into it, so that they can fall into this backwards movement,

[00:04:03] because you don't want it to be too complicated or too challenging.

[00:04:11] It's supposed to be challenging.

[00:04:14] I think literature should encourage us to think and participate and should also have empty spaces that invite us to do so,

[00:04:22] to put ourselves in relation to a text.

[00:04:25] But it should also be a kind of falling into it.

[00:04:28] You should also be able to abandon yourself to the text.

[00:04:30] And the challenge was, for example, when the protagonists discover a place for the first time in their youth,

[00:04:38] like Milena and Camille's inn, then I have to describe this space as the characters see it for the first time.

[00:04:45] But the readers, they enter this room for the first time at a completely different point.

[00:04:50] So I have to avoid redundancies.

[00:04:52] I can't tell them twice.

[00:04:54] So what's on the tables, what blankets, how is the room decorated.

[00:04:59] So I have to find a balance in the storytelling.

[00:05:03] And that was really the challenge, to weave it differently.

[00:05:07] Boris: It's also very exciting to read.

[00:05:09] There are always puzzling moments, it seemed to me, while reading.

[00:05:14] And then of course they clear up again over time.

[00:05:17] It was also very exciting for me, the reading process.

[00:05:21] Iris Wolff: You have to work more with this kind of storytelling about motifs.

[00:05:25] So motifs of recognition.

[00:05:27] Something is implied and the reader has to trust it.

[00:05:32] It's explained to me at or at some point, it's shown to me.

[00:05:38] But in the beginning it's just hints and clues.

[00:05:42] Boris: Now I would be interested to know, as you have just explained,

[00:05:48] how you have to work technically to make it work

[00:05:53] at the end a book that is constructed like this.

[00:05:57] What is your writing routine like?

[00:05:59] Do you work on your books after office hours?

[00:06:04] Or how can one imagine that?

[00:06:06] Iris Wolff: The first thing is that I take a long time.

[00:06:09] So, that I don't

[00:06:13] that I don't rush, that I don't set deadlines too early, because I think you first have to

[00:06:16] see how the material develops, in which direction it goes. I also make very few

[00:06:22] plans for my characters or for the plot and that's why I need time first, that's

[00:06:27] important. Then there are phases where the writing goes well and phases where you have to wait because you

[00:06:33] you don't know how the story is going to continue, so you need some outside help or

[00:06:37] something that life throws at you, so that you know in which direction it's going. And I am already

[00:06:43] the classic morning writer. So get up, don't watch the news, don't get caught up in emails

[00:06:51] and other temptations that lure you away from your desk, because there are

[00:06:57] always. And then I really try to use this time until twelve and push the story forward.

[00:07:04] In the afternoon, I can do more like revision or research. Then there's

[00:07:12] of course there are also big interruptions when you're on a reading tour. There are authors,